Pics of Berger Bullets NOT Performing????

[Pdvdh]

Re: Pics of Meplat-Trimmed Berger 210 VLD Bullets Performing

This experience causes me to suspect, more than ever, that the closed-tip factory VLDs are less likely to expand on game. If this minimal meplat trimming and hollow pointing turns the VLD into mini-bombs, the closed tips could result in unexpanded pass-thrus.

I suspect the best modification to the tips of the factory VLDs might be solely using the Kevin Cram hollow-pointing tool to ensure all factory VLD tips have a uniformed hole at their tip, prior to use on big game. Nothing certain here, just my suspicion.

 

[elkaholic]

Good stuff Paul, and a very nice bull. I'm not too surprised at the difference and is the reason I have recommended to people for awhile that they drill out the tips if they want more consistent expansion. Again, it depends on how far away your game is. Closer up, the factory bergers may perform better. At 1000+, there is no doubt in my mind the doctored meplats are the ticket. As I think you indicated, a small meplat cleaning may make things more consistent at mid ranges.......Rich

 

[cowboy]

Re: Pics of Meplat-Trimmed Berger 210 VLD Bullets Performing

If this minimal meplat trimming and hollow pointing turns the VLD into mini-bombs, the closed tips could result in unexpanded pass-thrus.

I've boned out many animals taken with the Berger vld hunting bullets from various weights and calibers and have never seen anything even close to those pictures, but then again I've never had one yet where it was just a point pass through either.

Thanks for sharing your results as it convinces me not to try that route.

Has anyone heard anything further from Berger on this matter?

 

[Pdvdh]

Re: Pics of Meplat-Trimmed Berger 210 VLD Bullets Performing

Has anyone heard anything further from Berger on this matter?

Good question. I've not read anything one way or the other, but await those test results.

In the mean time, I'll only use the hollow pointing tool, and just enough to center a complete and uniform hole in the tips of the VLD jacket. I didn't experience many bullets that were completely sealed off in a box of 100, but I believe I've been unlucky enough to have loaded and fired a couple closed-tipped VLDs into big game animals - resulting in unexpanded pass-throughs.

 

[Broz]

Paul, As we discussed, I have not had an issue with many kills with the 210 HVLD. What I will do from now on , and what I would recommend is this. I am not modifying the tips of the bullet in any way. But I will either visually or with a small wire inspect to assure the tips are open before loading them. If I find closed tipped bullets, (I have not found any yet) I will return them to Berger for their testing and I am sure they will gladly replace them.

I do not see a need to modify the tips in a .308 dia. rifle. I limit my ranges to 1000 on large game and I have gone farther for antelope but on rare occasions. I find the Berger 210 HVLD to work very well right out of the box for these distances. As well as up close. Simply inspecting the tips should remove any possible non expansion issues in the future.

Jeff

 

[Pdvdh]

Re: Pics of Meplat-Trimmed Berger 210 VLD Bullets Performing

Paul, As we discussed, I have not had an issue with many kills with the 210 HVLD. What I will do from now on , and what I would recommend is this. I am not modifying the tips of the bullet in any way. But I will either visually or with a small wire inspect to assure the tips are open before loading them. If I find closed tipped bullets, (I have not found any yet) I will return them to Berger for their testing and I am sure they will gladly replace them.

I do not see a need to modify the tips in a .308 dia. rifle.
Jeff

I understand your position Jeff, since you've not experienced any problems with these VLDs.

The hollow-pointing tool will both ensure the tips aren't closed, and create a minimum hole size - the diameter of the drill tip on the hollow-pointing tool. The drill bit on the tip of this tool isn't any larger than some of the holes in the tips of the factory jackets. Berger might do something along these lines themselves, but it would require an additional step in the manufacturing process which translates into additional cost.

The current manufacturing process produces bullets with differing size holes in the bullet tips and in fact, some closed tips. This becomes obvious after using the hollow-pointing tool on a couple hundred bullets and observing the size of the holes in the tip of each bullet jacket.

If I didn't already own the hollow-pointing tool, I'd do what you recommend, because the affect of using the tool remains - admittedly - unknown. But I now know that the much more aggressive opening of the meplat on the tips of the two bullets I used on this caribou still resulted in complete penetration.

 

[COBrad]

This will be my first year to try the Bergers on big game, so I can't offer anything to this discussion except that the performance of those modified bullets on the caribou are the reason I stopped using C&C bullets a few decades ago. Just too much ruined meat.

 

[IdahoRedneck]

Re: Pics of Meplat-Trimmed Berger 210 VLD Bullets Performing

This experience causes me to suspect, more than ever, that the closed-tip factory VLDs are less likely to expand on game. If this minimal meplat trimming and hollow pointing turns the VLD into mini-bombs, the closed tips could result in unexpanded pass-thrus.

I suspect the best modification to the tips of the factory VLDs might be solely using the Kevin Cram hollow-pointing tool to ensure all factory VLD tips have a uniformed hole at their tip, prior to use on big game. Nothing certain here, just my suspicion.

Wow those are some crazy holes. Is he going to be okay, haha. All joking aside I can see how there might be substantial meat loss with a poorly placed hit. I kinda like to see a little more penetration before the explosion myself. Still great pics thanks for the followup sir.

 

[royinidaho]

Re: Pics of Meplat-Trimmed Berger 210 VLD Bullets Performing

Here's the photos I took while field butchering this bull:

Entry side after trimming away some of the worst blood-gelling right next to the bullet holes.

After further trimming away of blood shot meat.

After trimming away of blood shot meat is complete. Two bullet entrance holes are clearly visible now. The one on the right struck the rib just off the tip of the knife blade.

Entry holes viewed from inside the ribcage.

Any questions - ask.

Very very similar performances w/300 gr Gen I 338 @ 157 yds except that bullet travel was almost exactly parallel to the rib cage. Animal was a decent size cow elk. MV was ~2730.


Bullet never entered the chest cavity.


10" of the major blood vessle under the spine was gone.


If the bullet wouldn't have performed in that manner I would have lost her.


Methinks velocity has a major affect.


Meplates are as built.

 

[bigngreen]

We've played with tipping and drilling for a couple years and I'm not a fan, after seen deer and antelope hit with modified bullets there was no way I'd shoot an elk with them. Far more consistent and meat loss is minimal with normal Bergers. There are bullets I'll modify but not an out of the box Berger.
Inspect the tips, take them hunting and worry about shot placement seems to work the best for me.

 

[IdahoRedneck]

We've played with tipping and drilling for a couple years and I'm not a fan, after seen deer and antelope hit with modified bullets there was no way I'd shoot an elk with them. Far more consistent and meat loss is minimal with normal Bergers. There are bullets I'll modify but not an out of the box Berger.
Inspect the tips, take them hunting and worry about shot placement seems to work the best for me.

+1 ............I believe that will be my strategy as well.gun) It seems to me that you lose the initial penetration, which is the key to these bergers working well with minimal meat loss. Through the exterior blow up on interior so to speak. I guess if the system aint broke dont try to fix it. JMHO of course.

 

[bman73]

Exit wound on cow elk taken with .338 300grn gen 2 OTM. No tip modification done. Range was 373 yards with mv of 2835

 

[idaho elk hunter]

You will read threads on all bullet brands of instances like these. Some hate, some love. Pictures add some validity and some concern but not every bullet will work perfect everytime. TRY Barnes bullets in the High velocity cartridges. I have had better luck with these than any other bullet.
NOSLER I hope your listening.. We are waiting for the NEW LONG RANGE Accubond.. I Hope it is a Gamechanger!

 

[J E Custom]

Lots of good comments about bullet performance and My experience with all bullets has been much the same.

I have had different bullets perform beautifully then for some strange reason fail miserably

The Sierra Match kings also come to mind when I saw Big greens post. I did the same (Trim the Meplat) to enlarge the tip and open the hollow point up just a little. It worked better but was still not consistent. the monolithic solids were inconsistent also.

I finally gave up on the highest BC bullets and the monolithic solids and started Looking for something that shot after shot performed the same whether your shot placement was in bone
or soft tissue.

My findings were, if it was a quality "Bonded Core" bullet they produced very consistent wound
channels whether you hit bone or soft tissue did not seem to make very much difference at any distance.

Bonded bullets expand well at all velocities, but with the jacket bonded to the core they stay
together better and don't fragment as bad as the non bonded bullets. Also with the newest bonded bullets you don't give up much BC for longer ranges.

I realize it is hard to give up those ELR bullets for hunting but at the ranges most of us get to hunt
there is little if any benefit and bullet performance on the game is the most important.

You may have to cut 100 yards off your extreme range and dope the wind and conditions better
but when the game hits the ground where he was standing more often it will be worth it.

When shooting steel or paper at extreme distance the VLD type of bullets come into there own.

Just my experience and recommendations for what it's worth.

J E CUSTOM