My thoughts on solid copper bullets and in comparison to other bullet types.

@Hard rock
I get what you're saying, but like I said, any bullet needs to be used within its particular limits, and also placed on/in the animal well. Many cup and core bullets are simply used outside their limits.

I fully understand and appreciate why guys use solids to limit over-expansion. And I said more than once in the post that I know many guys are using such bullets within the particular limits of them and they work great. I'm not disputing that at all. If you're happy and getting the results you like, keep doing it. I'm not trying to dissuade anyone here. I'm not bashing solids. I'm merely stating my own observations and what I've theorized so far. I don't want to say I've actually concluded anything. That would imply my mind is made up, and it's not.

I don't have anything against Hammers either. I want them to succeed as much as anyone else. They do indeed work very well when used within their limits and as I said in the post, there are many guys doing just that. My hats off to them. May they continue to thrive.
Very well said, regardless of bullet choice all of the mechanics have got to be in line
Impact Velocity + Bullet performance@ your desired Range
 
I'm not a doctor, first of all, so I'm not qualified to make such medical determinations. That said, I completely agree it doesn't always happen. I don't believe I said it always happens either. There has to be sufficient trauma to a nerve center to shut down the CNS. Blowing your face off isn't hitting a plexus of nerves. Not everyone gets knocked out in a fight either. Each individual tends to be different. Animals would be the same. Their anatomy does differ a bit from humans though too.

I have seen first hand plenty of examples where an animal has defied the odds and didn't drop and even ran with wounding you'd never think would allow it to be possible. Strange things do happen. If I implied I was talking in absolutes in my posts, I didn't mean to.

As far as the "temporary coma", this is something I've seen mentioned in multiple places, including Nathan Foster describe it. I believe you would be able to find him mention it in some of his articles on his website even. It's just a term I've also decided to use to best describe what I've seen. There are likely millions by now cases of animals being shot in the body and shoulders and didn't receive sufficient hydrostatic shock to drop. It has a lot to do with the particular bullet and how it transfers that energy and shockwave. It depends on where it hits too. It depends on a lot of things really, to include the animal itself.
I don't know what a plexus of nerves is but I would think hydrostatic shock of a 12 gauge shot shell in close proximity to brain stem, vagus nerve, etc would cause lights out if the stated theory were valid. I'm not familiar with Nathan Foster but I will be. I'm in no way trying to be argumentative. i agree large animal anatomy differs from humans but to a man, the medical experts I was associated with at the time agreed the only things that can be counted on for incapacitation is disrupting the CNS via the brain stem or rapid blood loss through penetration and laceration of major organs. Thank you for creating discussion and your other post on bullet construction. It was very informative and I'm sure a lot of work.
 
Ye Sir it does and I'm impressed with your answer and you are 100% correct, I was a hardcore cup and core guy and long story short I switched............ For a reason to Barnes which did quit well and now to Hammers, I'd really like to have a civil discussion without everyone saying I'm beating the Hammer drum if your up for it, if not I'll yield, No worries either way
I don't mind at all. I really appreciate civil discussions and without bias on any one bullet. They all have their strengths and weaknesses and their place.

I had a lot of issues with cup and core bullets once too, and it was one big reason I switched to copper bullets when I did too. After using copper bullet for a long time, and actually never losing an animal with them (so take that for what it's worth), I did ultimately go back to cup and core bullets. During the time I was using the copper bullets, I was getting really deep into researching all this stuff and I started figuring out what I was doing wrong with the cup and cores. So I tried experimenting with the new knowledge and starting having much better overall performance compared to what I was getting with the solids I was using. I've continued that success now for several years and and been able to share this knowledge and advice with honestly quite a few people, including customers, and I've yet to have anyone tell me it didn't work amazing. It does feel good.

Since switching back to cup and core bullets though, there's been a lot of new companies making solids that I've yet to actually try myself. Maker, Badlands, Hammer, etc are a few examples, although I have been sent a few to at least cross-section. I've not seen what I consider to be any true game changing technology though. The Terminal Shock bullets from DRT are still my absolute favorite lead free bullets abd I have actually used those.
 
I don't know what a plexus of nerves is but I would think hydrostatic shock of a 12 gauge shot shell in close proximity to brain stem, vagus nerve, etc would cause lights out if the stated theory were valid. I'm not familiar with Nathan Foster but I will be. I'm in no way trying to be argumentative. i agree large animal anatomy differs from humans but to a man, the medical experts I was associated with at the time agreed the only things that can be counted on for incapacitation is disrupting the CNS via the brain stem or rapid blood loss through penetration and laceration of major organs. Thank you for creating discussion and your other post on bullet construction. It was very informative and I'm sure a lot of work.
I guess the way I see it in your example, is that a 12ga shotgun straight to the face like that isn't going to meet the resistance required to send a shockwave via hydrostatic shock to the brain, even though it's in such close proximity. If a projectile just punched right through, it's not experiencing the resistance required to transfer energy through a shockwave. It's just simply blowing on through. Just because it a huge blast and a large projectile doesn't equate to there being a electrical shockwave sent through the body/head.

I can assure you though that it does happen and many other hunters I'm sure can share experiences where they've seen it, even if they didn't understand that's what they were seeing.
 
Very interesting I've read all of page 1 and skimmed page 2. I'll go back and thoroughly re-read the entire thread.

Here's an example of a temporary shut down from last week in NM.

I shot a bull straight up the leg and right in the middle of the chest, what's called the middle of the deadly V by archers. The guide saw the impact and said I 10 ringed him.

This shot was at 547 yards with a 230 berger from a 30 nosler. Retained velocity was 2330 fps and energy was 2770.
That bull went down and didn't even twitch after the shot. We watched him for 10 minutes while I tried to control the shaking after the shot. I unloaded my rifle and was about to pack up for the move. As I'm just starting to gather my stuff my guide calmly states, hey your bull is up. I look at him in disbelief! He was up but not looking good. Not moving and head hung low. He was essentially dead but refused to admit it.
I told the guide, same spot 6 inches higher, I was determined to shock the spine this time and did.

After quartering the bull we pulled a rib and the lungs poured out in a sloppy mess. How that bull stood after 10 minutes of shredded lungs is beyond me.

Full story in the elk hunting forum.
 
Very interesting I've read all of page 1 and skimmed page 2. I'll go back and thoroughly re-read the entire thread.

Here's an example of a temporary shut down from last week in NM.

I shot a bull straight up the leg and right in the middle of the chest, what's called the middle of the deadly V by archers. The guide saw the impact and said I 10 ringed him.

This shot was at 547 yards with a 230 berger from a 30 nosler. Retained velocity was 2330 fps and energy was 2770.
That bull went down and didn't even twitch after the shot. We watched him for 10 minutes while I tried to control the shaking after the shot. I unloaded my rifle and was about to pack up for the move. As I'm just starting to gather my stuff my guide calmly states, hey your bull is up. I look at him in disbelief! He was up but not looking good. Not moving and head hung low. He was essentially dead but refused to admit it.
I told the guide, same spot 6 inches higher, I was determined to shock the spine this time and did.

After quartering the bull we pulled a rib and the lungs poured out in a sloppy mess. How that bull stood after 10 minutes of shredded lungs is beyond me.

Full story in the elk hunting forum.
It's truly amazing sometimes how some animals defy death like that lol. I've seen quite a few examples myself over the years. I've also seen the other side of the spectrum where they die and you're surprised they did lol.
 
It's truly amazing sometimes how some animals defy death like that lol. I've seen quite a few examples myself over the years. I've also seen the other side of the spectrum where they die and you're surprised they did lol.
The deadest I've ever seen an animal die was when I shot an 8pt whitetail at 60yds with a 290gr Barnes T-EZ muzzleloader bullet 1950fps MV. I hit it center of the shoulder and it didn't even take a step. Fell over like a saw horse pushed over. LOL I've shot 8 or so deer with that bullet within 100yds and the farthest one made it on hooves was 18yds. Their knees and elbows buckle and the hide ripples like no other.
 
Why do I feel like I'm about to get undeservingly ganged up on here?
Lol used to be Berger fans who did the ganging up.
I appreciate both threads the mirror my experience with bullets. I've used a lot of eld on game with great results, after reading ur post I'm excited to give the 195tmk a whirl I always used them for matches. in my 7mm I could not get the 180eldm to shoot swapped to the 180 Berger hybrid and that bullet work amazing, I've shot deer from 50 yards to 842 yards with perfect performance, elk and moose out to 590yds again worked great
 
When exactly did Kalifornia start to outlaw bullets with lead content?

Too much penetration?

If we rely heavily upon hydrostatic shock, ft./lbs. energy transfer, and non exit.....why are wide metplat, hard cast (non or very limited expanding), slow moving bullets so effective at killing game?

Asking for an inquisitive friend! memtb
 
Why do I feel like I'm about to get undeservingly ganged up on here?
You won't. We don't want to see another thread get nuked due to poor conduct. If our new members are coming into this thread, I am sure that they will keep things civil and on topic with no unprovoked ad hominem attacks

Thanks again for all of this information. I haven't learned this much about anything bullet related in a very long time.
 
When exactly did Kalifornia start to outlaw bullets with lead content?

Too much penetration?

If we rely heavily upon hydrostatic shock, ft./lbs. energy transfer, and non exit.....why are wide metplat, hard cast (non or very limited expanding), slow moving bullets so effective at killing game?

Asking for an inquisitive friend! memtb
The biologists used the endangered condor as a scape goat and said that the left over lead shot in birds and deer were giving the condors lead poisoning and killing them when they scavenged from the carcasses. Complete crap.
 
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