I just have to vent!

[Roll-Yur-Own]

I was excited to see a new hunting channel on DTV. Channel 604 is called MOR - Men's Outdoor Recreation.

I was watching a show call Alan Warren hunting show and these guys were talking about how hunters need to respect each others style of hunting such as bowhunter respecting rifle hunters and such. I'm thinking right on...

Until...

He says some thing like bowhunters have to respect rifle hunters who have to respect primitive weapons hunter, who have to respect high fence hunters.

Then they go into their high fence rant. The guy says he used to manage his heard without a high fence, but he got tired of quality animals going onto his neighbors property and getting shot there. Sorry man, thats part of what makes it hunting!

Then they show a small pen, like a cow pasture, with a bunch of nice bucks. I'm getting ****ed off by the second thinking to myself "How can this be hunting". You raise the animal in a pen so clearly it won't be that afraid of humans, then you let it run in a fenced in area and let some nimrod pay thousand of $$$ to shoot it. (Not hunt it, shoot it!)

Then for the ultimate insult, he says he's not in it for the money and that you can never make back selling a hunt what it costs you to raise the animal. Give me a break.

I do agree that he have to respect each others methods of hunting, but shooting a farm raised deer is like shooting a german shepard and calling it a wolf hunt.

The farm near me has some nice black angus. If I want a fake hunt I'd just get one of them.

I believe that these canned hunt guys are a detriment to us and they give the anti hunting people plenty to use against us. It not hunting, and I don't respect it!

 

[James Jones]

I agree 100% and if that show stands behind this type of "hunting" then I'd boycot it

 

[Wildcatter]

I saw that show. The way he tried to BS people by comparing it to a bow hunting vs. rifle thing reminds me of the Clintons.

 

[goodgrouper]

I couldn't agree with you more. I believe in all forms of hunting for game management. But if the game is not game and is just alternative livestock, it is in need of no management, and killing it is simply shooting not hunting. Shame on those hosts for calling it hunting. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif

 

[Spino]

I'm glad that I don't have any part of that style of so called glorified hunting! I'm also glad that I was not raised that way. What a shame for some of our newer generation that learn this way.

I do my part of deer managment (culling bad genetics & we do hunt with low fences).. The main thing that keeps me coming back year after year is the thrill of the hunt! You never know what's around the next corner/hill or what going to show up that morning while sitting in a deer blind. My friends 88yr old grandma - who has been a big hunter all her life told us to just enjoy the hunt. I've tried to analyze this and what I have come up with is that - she meant for us just to get out in the woods and enjoy what GOD has given to us.... I would have to belive that the guys that raised penned up deer - "that it is all about the $$$$$"... I just know that I will never be a part of that. It's a shame that anyone that hunt's this way misses out on the thrill of the hunt.

 

[stxhunter]

spino i wish tx would do something about all the high fencing make it for exotics only and if a person high fences a ranch the state should remove the native deer then if they want to buy domistic deer to stock they can

 

[edge]

IMO, high fence CAN be hunting, it depends on the acreage.

If you have a "PEN" that encompasses 5 or more square miles, or at least 2500 acres in ONE pen then I don't see any real problem. I must admit that I hunt in the East, so 2500 acres has woods and hills and rarely is there an open area that would even allow a 1,000 yard shot. Most shots are under 250yds and actually the mean would probably be 25 yards.
If you are talking about a wide open area then perhaps 10,000 acres might be considered the low side.

Just my opinion.

edge.

 

[Roll-Yur-Own]

Edge, If a guy has a 2500+ acre piece of property enclosed then I would leave that for another debate. I speaking about the obviously "canned" hunts.

I don't think hunting would be rewarding if I went our every time and harvested a trophy animal. Its those disapointing experiences that make the success so sweet!

 

[Fiftydriver]

I guess I would have to agree with Edge on this one. While there are some ranches that are really just pathetic about how small the areas you hunt in are, some I have seen are measured in the acres!!! Others have hunting areas that are several thousands of acres with herds that have been reproducing on their own for many many generations.

They are what they are and I would never say they are wild animal hunts but I have been on a couple hunts behind high fences that were as difficult if not more challanging then any fair chase hunt I have been on.

Its those that go in hunts on high fence ranches and try to claim they are public ground hunts that really tick me off. Call them what they are and we are all happy about this.

To this same point. I have a friend that has gone to Africa several times, South africa. He has gone to three differnt hunting outfits and every one had high fence hunting. The areas are roughly 1 to 2 square miles and he was told the high fence was to keep predators out. Funny thing is that in those specific areas, there are only specific game animals to hunt.

He gets pretty burred up when I tell him he is doing nothing differnet then what he would be doing down in Texas on some of the larger hunting ranches.

My problem with high fence hunting ranches is that it has given private land owners here in Montana the idea that they can charge $$$$$ for access fees and out of staters will pay it but no local hunters can or will afford it.

I acutally feel that these hunting ranches offer me as a custom rifle builder and wildcat designer an opportunity to test my creations in a real world hunting setting and allow me to collect performance data that other wise would take years and years to get.

I do not test my products on any game until I know for a fact that they will cleanly and efficently kill any animal I shoot at, that is only fair to any animal but again, I have been on some high fence hunts that were just as difficult as any wild game hunt.

To be honest, here in Montana, if your hunting say elk and you get access to good private ground, it is pathetically easy to shoot a respectable bull elk. I have seen 500 head of elk with more then 20 mature 6 point bullets in the 300 to 375" range stand in a field and watch us as we drop by at 300 yards. Not a single elk ran even when we stopped to take a look through the binos.

The ranch by the way is owned by a rich out of stater that only lets his east coast buddies hunt there. So to say that is more difficult then some high fence hunting is silly and no more difficult then popping a prairie dog at 300 yards. Then just drive the truck out and load your bull up hole.

In Montana, at least on private ground, its more in the luck of getting permission and a permit for limited draw areas then anything. You get those two things and if your any kind of a shot at all, your tag will be punched.

I talked with a guy that went on a high fence elk hunt two falls ago. He was hunting a certain bull that the ranch owner said was a legit 425" bull. The hunting area they were in was a square mile of broken timber and draws. The guy wanted to take the bull with a bow and he has taken dozens of wild bulls all over the US with archery gear. He is a very good hunter and generally gets 6x6 every season at least.

Anyway, he had a week long hunt. First day they got into the timber and within 30 yards of the bull he wanted but the wind swirled and he blew out of the timber. They hunted him for three solid days after that and saw the bull every day but never got within 200 yards of him. Then on the last day of the hunt, the guy took out his 300 Win Mag to "end the hunt" on the big bull.

They never saw hide nor hair of the big bullet that entire day and the guy settled for a 350" bull at last light.

Two weeks later an older lady had that 425" bull walk out in front of her and she popped him with a 243!!!

My point is. Big game animals that live in an enclose area know that area every bit as well if not better then wildcat know the area they hunt in. In the back country, a bull elk may live to maturaty and never see a human. In a high fence hunting area, they play the game every day and get **** good at it.

Again, I am not saying I approve of everything to do with high fence hunting. I certainly do not but when done in the proper way, it can be an extremely challanging hunt.

In my opinion, if you go on a high fence hunt, just be honest with what it is and do not come off saying its a wild game hunt. If your ashamed of what your doing you should not be doing it in my opinion.

I have an elk hunt booked this fall for elk on a high fence ranch. The main reason I booked it is because We got a hell of a deal on the hunt and also because I will be able to test either my 300 AX or 338 AX on heavy game and get real world test results to offer my customers.

I will shoot a big bull, there is no doubt about that and I will never claim its a wild elk hunt because it is not in any way but from what I have heard about this ranch, I better be ready for some serious walking and possibly deep timber hunting. We will try for some longer range hunting but the owner said that does not always happen as he does not "feed" these animals, they are limited in number to the area hunted and that land supports them fully so you hunt them as you would in the wild, on water and food sources.

Anyway, enough, My only point is there is a huge spectrum of high fence ranches out there. Some should be shut down yesterday while others really offer a unique chance at a challanging hunt and often to hunt some unique game that is only able to be hunted on these ranches.

I also like hunting exotic rams and this is the only way to do it here in the US. Also a great chance to get away for some off season adventures.

Anyone that has hunted a large herd of Mouflon sheep and tried to pick out a specific ram you want on a large hunting area knows how challanging that is.

All I say is be honest with what your doing and up front about it. If its high fence hunting, come out with that from the start and no one has a right to complain, try to hide that fact and everyone will hammer you.

Kirby Allen(50)

 

[edge]

[ QUOTE ]
SNIP

I don't think hunting would be rewarding if I went our every time and harvested a trophy animal. Its those disapointing experiences that make the success so sweet!

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. This past year I shot a buck at about 340 yards with my Muzzleloader eclipsing my previous long shot by almost 100 yards. Even though I had 2 months left in the ML season my year was made /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Yes I still went out each weekend and hoped to top that shot, but the urgency to harvest another animal was not there and I became much more of a spectator.

edge.

 

[eddybo]

I think what you saw on TV was just what it appeared to be...a deer pen. However, I think that is where they are keeping thier cover bucks for breeding not hunting purposes.
High fence hunting can be hunting. In the 17K high fenced ranch I have hunted in, the fence gives no advantage to the hunter. Neither the hunters of the animals ever see the fence and the animals are just as wild as those outside the fence.
Now canned hunts where you go out and pick the animal you want to shoot out of a pen where the animals have no place to go.....yuck

 

[4ked Horn]

[ QUOTE ]
Now canned hunts where you go out and pick the animal you want to shoot out of a pen where the animals have no place to go.....yuck

[/ QUOTE ]

This is nothing more than going to a stockyard and picking out which cow you want to buy and then them letting you shoot it yourself. I don't find it offensive but I certainly dont call it hunting. It is the way most of the meat in america winds up in the grocery store but the guy killing the animal does not call himself a hunter.

I think everyone that eats meat should at one time in their lives have to kill that meat. Again it is only killing, not hunting. The animal doesn't care. It still ends up on the plate.

It is the same difference between buying your hunting tag and buying an animal at a 4H auction. Both are acceptable ways to get meat but the auctioner can take no pride in doing any of the work.

 

[Roll-Yur-Own]

I didn't want this to turn into a debate about high fence hunting. Like I said, there are some BIG properties that are fenced in. And I must agree with Kirby that I have been on hunts that were super easy and they didn't have fences.

I was venting about the fact that this guy ran a breeding operation and was saying it is hunting. It not plain and simple.

In my opinion, what make a makes a hunt a canned hunt is the fact that they breed specific animals for harvesting in breeding pens before letting them into the general area. The real bad operation have different areas for different game. If someone high fences a 5000 acre piece and manages the wildlife without running a seperate breeding operation, then I will have mutual respect for what they do. It like the baiting vs. not baiting argument.

 

[royinidaho]

I'm with Edge and Kirby on this subject.

Also I don't really understand what fair chase is /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif If its traipsing around the mountains looking for something to shoot then I understand it. But when I think of the term "fair chase" I think of those times when the buck knew I was there, I knew he was there and we spent the day playing hide and seek. The first one to make a mistake looses. The odds are always in the bucks favor.

Is this fair chase? I walk up and old blocked off dozer road for maybe 30 minutes. I set up the shooting mat, spotter, LRF and rifle and pillow and blanket (for naps). The view is is out to 1200 yards or more. There are always elk and moose in view (well almost always). If I have the proper tag (I've had the wrong tag, always) its supposed to be dope and shoot then hike the more than 750 yards (closest possible shot) and haul the game out. It doesn't seem 'fair' to me but I love it.

Just on the other side of the mountain I set up on is a high fenced several square mile 'hunting preserve'. I've studied it quite a bit and have yet to see an elk and I know there are plenty in there. FWIW.