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Dialing vs. Holdover For Long Range Hunting
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Sully2
Well-Known Member
I am just a rank amateur compared to those on this thread. I was not trained by the military. Have used moa my entire shooting life of.about 50 years.
This is what has worked for me.
Back in the day we would do a 200 yrd zero. I knew I would be about 2" high at a 100 yards and.about.8 inches low at.300. 300 was a long shot back then.
Now I use a range finder and CDS dials on my hunting rifle. For me over 300 yards is still a long shot on game. Have a range card with 5 and 10 MPH dope for windage and do hold.for.wind.
Most.recently I bought.a kestrel with AB and a Bushnell range finder. Still playing with it but once I get it figured out I think it will work well.
This is what has worked for me.
Back in the day we would do a 200 yrd zero. I knew I would be about 2" high at a 100 yards and.about.8 inches low at.300. 300 was a long shot back then.
Now I use a range finder and CDS dials on my hunting rifle. For me over 300 yards is still a long shot on game. Have a range card with 5 and 10 MPH dope for windage and do hold.for.wind.
Most.recently I bought.a kestrel with AB and a Bushnell range finder. Still playing with it but once I get it figured out I think it will work well.
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That's the way it was done. That's the way it was taught to me when I first started shooting in 1968. There's a lot of schools out there. However, if you would like to take one of our courses, we are located in Southern Utah. We have over 20 shooting stations that are basically 20 ranges. In addition, we have a flat known distance range that is 1,700 meters long that is at 9,400' ASL. SEAL Team commented about our range stating that, "it is the Best Range, and the only one like it in the United States". Our ranges sit on 100,000 acres of land and we have total freedom of movement throughout the cantonment area.
Some of our our instructors are retired Navy SEAL's, one is a Warrant Officer 5 who served for thirty years, held the classification of Sniper for twenty years, ran the sniper program for seven years as well as other programs and is a former .50 Cal 1000 yard champion.
The other SEAL is a retired Commander and retired operator. He spent approximately the last 12 years in the middle east.
Retired DHS Sniper's, one of which was a Marine, and attached to the White House Detail.
I am veteran, US Army, and have instructed US Special Forces Snipers, (SEAL Team, Rangers, D Boys and others), as well as foreign military snipers in the middle east and other areas for several decades.
If you would like to take one of our courses and not waste your time with instructors who think they know their subject matter, please call me for more information, we would love to work with you. We run our courses in-between 1 June and the second week of August. Come out and I/we will reveal the tremendous faults of the "hold-over" method and introduce you to software that was authored this century, with current equations and models, not severely outdated ones that were written in the early 1960's. Most of the Ballistic Software stems from Mr. McCoy's original software that was written int the early 1960's and re-written in "basic" in the early to mid 1970's. The Best Ballistic Targeting Software available is called "X-Ring," and was written by Dr. Lyman Hazelton, PHD, (Astrophysicist).
Teesquare: Integrity is the one thing that can't be taken from you, it can only be given away. It appears to me that you have accomplished that. You made a sarcastic comment about me knowing more about shooting than the brass at SOCOM. To respond to that, "You bet your *** I do."
Best Regards,
Ward W Brien
Some of our our instructors are retired Navy SEAL's, one is a Warrant Officer 5 who served for thirty years, held the classification of Sniper for twenty years, ran the sniper program for seven years as well as other programs and is a former .50 Cal 1000 yard champion.
The other SEAL is a retired Commander and retired operator. He spent approximately the last 12 years in the middle east.
Retired DHS Sniper's, one of which was a Marine, and attached to the White House Detail.
I am veteran, US Army, and have instructed US Special Forces Snipers, (SEAL Team, Rangers, D Boys and others), as well as foreign military snipers in the middle east and other areas for several decades.
If you would like to take one of our courses and not waste your time with instructors who think they know their subject matter, please call me for more information, we would love to work with you. We run our courses in-between 1 June and the second week of August. Come out and I/we will reveal the tremendous faults of the "hold-over" method and introduce you to software that was authored this century, with current equations and models, not severely outdated ones that were written in the early 1960's. Most of the Ballistic Software stems from Mr. McCoy's original software that was written int the early 1960's and re-written in "basic" in the early to mid 1970's. The Best Ballistic Targeting Software available is called "X-Ring," and was written by Dr. Lyman Hazelton, PHD, (Astrophysicist).
Teesquare: Integrity is the one thing that can't be taken from you, it can only be given away. It appears to me that you have accomplished that. You made a sarcastic comment about me knowing more about shooting than the brass at SOCOM. To respond to that, "You bet your *** I do."
Best Regards,
Ward W Brien
Strick9
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Nov 16, 2007
- Messages
- 390
Ward,
You seem pretty legit, hope your neck is healing well. No need to tout you or your schools legitimacy so profoundly.. You are who you are.
Though I have been around the world and likely dusted beside some of your teaching folk it never sits well amongst the common hunter to tout as such..
So ease up, dial or hold, stand or squat, back or side, grind or grit but mostly easy up on the reins homeboy.
Life it short and you know this brother.
And by the way instinctive is end all.
Gitty Up.
Strick9
You seem pretty legit, hope your neck is healing well. No need to tout you or your schools legitimacy so profoundly.. You are who you are.
Though I have been around the world and likely dusted beside some of your teaching folk it never sits well amongst the common hunter to tout as such..
So ease up, dial or hold, stand or squat, back or side, grind or grit but mostly easy up on the reins homeboy.
Life it short and you know this brother.
And by the way instinctive is end all.
Gitty Up.
Strick9
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985
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Roger/Roger. It was the spool up...
You know, there's an instructor who has a scope manufacture instal a reticle with holdover marks for the specific caliber of the specific rifle that he sells to his students. The students don't realize that the scope is calibrated to work only at one specific density altitude and only on the one rifle. They're being scammed & taken advantage of. Why? Just For $? Or is the instructor just inept?
In any regard, the information and practices being taught are not only bogus, lack the understanding of the science behind it, but also have wiped out the standards and protocols from hard lessons learned. Most of the hunters that come out to the MSC are on vacation and want to experience a mountain shooting course in a relaxed environment. I've learned that. But once they come out for 1-2 years they begin to shift. When they're ready to get on top of the mountain to zero at dawn, in ambient light, they've progressed to another level. They're understanding the science and they really begin to learn.
I care about the curriculum and those that want to learn. It's not about the $$$. It's about the student. And for the last 15 years I've watched people loose their lives due to bad instruction based upon the law of primacy. I hope people are listening. If they want to learn, I/we are here.
You know, there's an instructor who has a scope manufacture instal a reticle with holdover marks for the specific caliber of the specific rifle that he sells to his students. The students don't realize that the scope is calibrated to work only at one specific density altitude and only on the one rifle. They're being scammed & taken advantage of. Why? Just For $? Or is the instructor just inept?
In any regard, the information and practices being taught are not only bogus, lack the understanding of the science behind it, but also have wiped out the standards and protocols from hard lessons learned. Most of the hunters that come out to the MSC are on vacation and want to experience a mountain shooting course in a relaxed environment. I've learned that. But once they come out for 1-2 years they begin to shift. When they're ready to get on top of the mountain to zero at dawn, in ambient light, they've progressed to another level. They're understanding the science and they really begin to learn.
I care about the curriculum and those that want to learn. It's not about the $$$. It's about the student. And for the last 15 years I've watched people loose their lives due to bad instruction based upon the law of primacy. I hope people are listening. If they want to learn, I/we are here.
9
985
Guest
An interesting article. A little old, although ties into light "ray tracing" and why holding over is a flawed practice.
Light Photographed As A Wave And A Particle For The First Time
Seeing is believing
By Alexandra Ossola March 2, 2015
The first-ever image of light behaving as both a particle and a wave. Credit: Fabrizio Carbone/EPFL
Scientists have long known that light can behave as both a particle and a wave—Einstein first predicted it in 1909. But no experiment has been able to show light in both states simultaneously. Now, researchers at the École Polytechnique Fédérale de Lausanne in Switzerland have taken the first ever photograph of light as both a wave and a particle. The key was a new experimental technique that uses electrons to capture the light's movement. The work was published today in the journal Nature Communications.
To get this snapshot, the researchers shot laser pulses at a nanowire. The wavelengths of light moved in two different directions along the metal. When the waves ran into each other, they look liked a wave standing still, which is effectively a particle.
In order to see how the waves were moving, the researchers shot a beam of electrons at the nanowire, like dropping dye in a river to see the currents. The particles in the light wave changed the speed at which the electrons moved. That enabled the researchers to capture an image just as the waves met.
"This experiment demonstrates that, for the first time ever, we can film quantum mechanics – and its paradoxical nature – directly," said Fabrizio Carbone, one of the authors of the study, in a press release. Carbone hopes that a better understanding of how light functions can jumpstart the field of quantum computing.
Light Photographed As A Wave And A Particle For The First Time
Seeing is believing
By Alexandra Ossola March 2, 2015
The first-ever image of light behaving as both a particle and a wave. Credit: Fabrizio Carbone/EPFL
Scientists have long known that light can behave as both a particle and a wave—Einstein first predicted it in 1909. But no experiment has been able to show light in both states simultaneously. Now, researchers at the École Polytechnique Fédérale de Lausanne in Switzerland have taken the first ever photograph of light as both a wave and a particle. The key was a new experimental technique that uses electrons to capture the light's movement. The work was published today in the journal Nature Communications.
To get this snapshot, the researchers shot laser pulses at a nanowire. The wavelengths of light moved in two different directions along the metal. When the waves ran into each other, they look liked a wave standing still, which is effectively a particle.
In order to see how the waves were moving, the researchers shot a beam of electrons at the nanowire, like dropping dye in a river to see the currents. The particles in the light wave changed the speed at which the electrons moved. That enabled the researchers to capture an image just as the waves met.
"This experiment demonstrates that, for the first time ever, we can film quantum mechanics – and its paradoxical nature – directly," said Fabrizio Carbone, one of the authors of the study, in a press release. Carbone hopes that a better understanding of how light functions can jumpstart the field of quantum computing.
Mikecr
Well-Known Member
And if I dropped a rock in water I could see it(with a strobe light) as both wave and particle by the same quantum horse hockey logic..
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You would have to read the other posts on the previous page for the information to kind of make sense.
Litehiker
Well-Known Member
ONCE AGAIN WITH FEELING:
Holding with a good "Christmas tree" reticle like a Horus H59 or TreMor is EVERY bit as accurate as "holding" on the center reticle and dialing, often more accurate if your turret gears are even a tiny bit off from wear or sloppy manufacture.
The best firing solution tool I know of is the new Kestrel Elite 5700 with Advanced Ballistics software. All ballistic, atmospheric, angular and coriolis elements are factored into the final firing solution. Do your part with ballistic input setup at home, range and angle in the field and the Kestrel will do the rest including the most important wind, the wind at your firing position.
The above mentioned reticles and Kestrel meter are the current state of the art.
Eric B.
Holding with a good "Christmas tree" reticle like a Horus H59 or TreMor is EVERY bit as accurate as "holding" on the center reticle and dialing, often more accurate if your turret gears are even a tiny bit off from wear or sloppy manufacture.
The best firing solution tool I know of is the new Kestrel Elite 5700 with Advanced Ballistics software. All ballistic, atmospheric, angular and coriolis elements are factored into the final firing solution. Do your part with ballistic input setup at home, range and angle in the field and the Kestrel will do the rest including the most important wind, the wind at your firing position.
The above mentioned reticles and Kestrel meter are the current state of the art.
Eric B.
acourvil
Well-Known Member
While the article describes an interesting experiment with notable results, the headline and the conclusion you are reaching from it are not accurate. See No, You Cannot Catch An Individual Photon Acting Simultaneously As A Pure Particle And Wave
