SOLD/EXPIRED Comparing the 6.5 shorts

[elkaholic]

I have been getting a LOT of calls lately about the 6.5 SS and why build one rather than the others, most notably, the 6.5 SAUM, the 6.5 4S, and occasionally, the WSM.
While there are some benefits and down sides to all, here is my evaluation of the the choices and why I designed the SS as it is.
The WSM.........The greatest plus here is velocity because of its considerable capacity advantage over the others. It also has good brass availability and dies are available.
The negatives are minimal velocity gain for an approx. 10% increase in powder charge. Less barrel life. Short neck. The least desirable for a short action build because of coal with the long bullets and magazine limitations. Some reports of being finicky although that is heresay, so correct me if this is inaccurate?
The 6.5 SAUM.......Good velocity. A better neck than the WSM. Lends itself a little better to the short actions. Ease of case forming. Good die availability.
The negatives are mostly limited to having to single load or sacrifice velocity, and/or accuracy, because of having to seat the heavy bullets well into the case body.
The 6.5 4S........The concept met a need by shortening the throat to allow coal to be short enough to cycle through a short action magazine and was designed primarily with the 130 grain bullet in mind.
The negative is useable case capacity is reduced, especially with bullets weighing 140 grains or more, thereby sacrificing velocity. (the throat is approx. .095" shorter than the SS)
The 6.5 SS.......The shortest, most efficient of all listed. Velocity is second to only the WSM, and not by much. Longest neck, least body taper and sharpest shoulder benefits accuracy, barrel life, and less case stretching. Will cycle through a standard short action without the bullet infringing on useable case capacity. (with the addition of an AICS box, even the 160 Matrix can be seated to the lands) (SEXY LOOKING)
The only negative is, for those who like to keep things simple, case forming requires a little more attention with the use of an extra forming die.
I may have missed some positives and/or negatives for each, or there may be some disagreement, so feel free to contribute...............Rich

 

[branwill25]

That is good info. I know I should look it up but what is a 6.5 SS? I love the 6.5 calibers, own 2, and am looking at building another. Thanks

Brandon

 

[LeddSlinger]

Another one to consider is the 6.5 Remington Magnum. I can run any weight bullet faster than the 6.5-300 WSM in identical barrel lengths and twist rates, but also do it while burning about 6 grains less powder. For example;

My father in law has a 6.5-300 WSM with a 26" 1 in 8 twist barrel. He pushes the 140gr Berger VLD at 3180 fps wit 58gr of RL-17 and gets loose primer pockets if he tries to go faster.

My 6.5 Rem Mag has a 26" barrel with a 1 in 8 twist and I am pushing the same 140gr Berger VLD at 3209 fps using only 52gr of RL-17. AND no pressure signs. Though I haven't tried to go faster because the accuracy is absolutely awesome and the speed is plenty fast enough.

The 6.5 Rem Mag is basically the "short mag" version of the 264 Win Mag. But it is way more efficient and produces 264 win mag speeds with ease.

And just because a 6.5 is "capable" of fast barrel burning speeds doesn't mean you have to load it that way. You can lower speeds all you want if barrel life is a concern. But it sure is nice to have the ability to have a laser beam if you want to

But if that's not your cup of tea, I would build a 6.5 SAUM way before I thought of a 6.5 SS or 6.5 WSM. The SAUM case has less diameter than the WSM or SS so it will fit in magazines and feed better. The 6.5 SAUM is a very fast round as well. Probably rivals the 6.5 WSM

Just my .02

 

[elkaholic]

That is good info. I know I should look it up but what is a 6.5 SS? I love the 6.5 calibers, own 2, and am looking at building another. Thanks

Brandon

It is fairly new but there is some info on other forum threads............Rich

 

[elkaholic]

Another one to consider is the 6.5 Remington Magnum. I can run any weight bullet faster than the 6.5-300 WSM in identical barrel lengths and twist rates, but also do it while burning about 6 grains less powder. For example;

My father in law has a 6.5-300 WSM with a 26" 1 in 8 twist barrel. He pushes the 140gr Berger VLD at 3180 fps wit 58gr of RL-17 and gets loose primer pockets if he tries to go faster.

My 6.5 Rem Mag has a 26" barrel with a 1 in 8 twist and I am pushing the same 140gr Berger VLD at 3209 fps using only 52gr of RL-17. AND no pressure signs. Though I haven't tried to go faster because the accuracy is absolutely awesome and the speed is plenty fast enough.

The 6.5 Rem Mag is basically the "short mag" version of the 264 Win Mag. But it is way more efficient and produces 264 win mag speeds with ease.

And just because a 6.5 is "capable" of fast barrel burning speeds doesn't mean you have to load it that way. You can lower speeds all you want if barrel life is a concern. But it sure is nice to have the ability to have a laser beam if you want to

But if that's not your cup of tea, I would build a 6.5 SAUM way before I thought of a 6.5 SS or 6.5 WSM. The SAUM case has less diameter than the WSM or SS so it will fit in magazines and feed better. The 6.5 SAUM is a very fast round as well. Probably rivals the 6.5 WSM

Just my .02

WOW! That IS magical! Outperforming a case with approx. 12 grains less case capacity and with less pressure to boot!

 

[elkaholic]

WOW! That IS magical! Outperforming a cartridge with 12 grains less capacity and less pressure to boot!

 

[Scot E]

Rich, I know I've seen the list of what needs to be done as far as case forming but can't find it. Do you have that info handy that you can re-post?

I've been following the 4s pretty closely and am very impressed with it but there is quite a bit of case forming there too and guys are getting some variation between successful forming and results with diffrent manufacturers. Until they get headstamped brass this is a negative for the 4s too. If you have the cash you can be already formed brass from copper creek but for those wanting/needing to do the forming themselves this is something to consider.
I've loved following both of your 6.5 sherman projects!

 

[elkaholic]

I have NO IDEA how this thread got in this section but does anyone know how to move it to "rifles,bullets, barrels, and ballistics"?.............thanks/Rich

 

[LeddSlinger]

WOW! That IS magical! Outperforming a cartridge with 12 grains less capacity and less pressure to boot!

Is what it is. The chronograph doesn't lie. Actually it was shot over two different chronographs for verification...

Just the same as how my 338-375 Ruger can push a 250gr Berger VLD out of a 26" barrel at 2930 fps with only 74 gr of powder (RL-17 as well). It can even hit 3000 fps with another grain added, but accuracy wasnt there.

Now ask yourself, how much powder does a 338 Lapua have to burn to get the same speed with a 250gr bullet? To answer that for you, it is around 90+gr of powder and those speeds are mostly only seen from people using 27" or longer barrels on a 338 Lapua. But wait! Is that possible that bullets can go faster with less powder??? You bet it is.

So your mockery of my speed claims regarding the 6.5 Rem Mag is surely rooted in sheer ignorance and inexperience.

 

[300R]

Is what it is. The chronograph doesn't lie. Actually it was shot over two different chronographs for verification...

Just the same as how my 338-375 Ruger can push a 250gr Berger VLD out of a 26" barrel at 2930 fps with only 74 gr of powder (RL-17 as well). It can even hit 3000 fps with another grain added, but accuracy wasnt there.

Now ask yourself, how much powder does a 338 Lapua have to burn to get the same speed with a 250gr bullet? To answer that for you, it is around 90+gr of powder and those speeds are mostly only seen from people using 27" or longer barrels on a 338 Lapua. But wait! Is that possible that bullets can go faster with less powder??? You bet it is.

So your mockery of my speed claims regarding the 6.5 Rem Mag is surely rooted in sheer ignorance and inexperience.

Don't break your arm patting yourself on the back sir. The title reads Comparing the 6.5 'shorts',perhaps a little ignorance and inexperience on your own account.I have no doubt the op has a lot more experience than most.

 

[Outlaw6.0]

Is what it is. The chronograph doesn't lie. Actually it was shot over two different chronographs for verification...

Just the same as how my 338-375 Ruger can push a 250gr Berger VLD out of a 26" barrel at 2930 fps with only 74 gr of powder (RL-17 as well). It can even hit 3000 fps with another grain added, but accuracy wasnt there.

Now ask yourself, how much powder does a 338 Lapua have to burn to get the same speed with a 250gr bullet? To answer that for you, it is around 90+gr of powder and those speeds are mostly only seen from people using 27" or longer barrels on a 338 Lapua. But wait! Is that possible that bullets can go faster with less powder??? You bet it is.

So your mockery of my speed claims regarding the 6.5 Rem Mag is surely rooted in sheer ignorance and inexperience.

Easy chief, Rich may be a lot of things but ignorant and/or inexperienced is not part of the equation. I'm not casting stones but your Rem mag will not touch the SS or the WSM for pure velocity potential. I am in no way trying to detract from or defame the cartridge, just stating the facts as I know them them be.

The WSM you speak of sounds very slow to me, i'm really surprised that is all the velocity that can be had. Perhaps switching to H-1000 or one of the VV- N500 series would help? I have pushed the 160 Matrix to that velocity out of mine, without losing primer pockets. I do recall the SS getting very close as well.

I'm not bagging on you or the Rem mag, just adding to the discussion, don't take it personally.



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[CB11WYO]

Another one to consider is the 6.5 Remington Magnum....

Please see title: "Comparing the 6.5 SHORTS"

 

[elkaholic]

Is what it is. The chronograph doesn't lie. Actually it was shot over two different chronographs for verification...

Just the same as how my 338-375 Ruger can push a 250gr Berger VLD out of a 26" barrel at 2930 fps with only 74 gr of powder (RL-17 as well). It can even hit 3000 fps with another grain added, but accuracy wasnt there.

Now ask yourself, how much powder does a 338 Lapua have to burn to get the same speed with a 250gr bullet? To answer that for you, it is around 90+gr of powder and those speeds are mostly only seen from people using 27" or longer barrels on a 338 Lapua. But wait! Is that possible that bullets can go faster with less powder??? You bet it is.

So your mockery of my speed claims regarding the 6.5 Rem Mag is surely rooted in sheer ignorance and inexperience.

If that was your side by side result, then there were some other factors going on with the two rifles/cartridges. If you build 10 more of each, I would venture the result would be very different 10 out of 10 times. Usually when something makes no sense, there is a good reason............Rich

 

[Outlaw6.0]

.....

The WSM.........The greatest plus here is velocity because of its considerable capacity advantage over the others. It also has good brass availability and dies are available.
The negatives are minimal velocity gain for an approx. 10% increase in powder charge. Less barrel life. Short neck. The least desirable for a short action build because of coal with the long bullets and magazine limitations. Some reports of being finicky although that is heresay, so correct me if this is inaccurate?
...........
I may have missed some positives and/or negatives for each, or there may be some disagreement, so feel free to contribute...............Rich

I have also heard the WSM can be finicky, I am happy mine is not one of them. Speaking from memory, I can't recall a single load going over MOA; maybe I got lucky? The COAL is a problem for a dude running a short action, I do agree with that. I set mine up as a single-slinger just because I knew it would be a problem I didn't want to deal with.


t