Bullet Expansion - Hammer Hunter vs HHT

[Weaver93]

Right. I'm aware how it works. I'm not saying it's not possible or not what happened, although since he had issues with two separate shots I'm not sure if that's what happened based on that detail alone.

I'm here looking for answers and to get whatever I can from this, just like others.

I've shot many bullets through many obstacles, such as corn stalks, bean stubble, grass, tree branches, saplings, etc, etc and most bullets I use do not have issues with it.

If the bullets in this case hit something substantial and that's the cause for the result, I'd be much happier with that explanation vs it being a bullet issue, don't get me wrong.

I guess I missed it, what was the issue with the first shot?

 

[Petey308]

Then it wasn't the hollowpoint design that failed.

Not necessarily. I've seen lots of entrance holes that are bigger than caliber size and the bullet was not tumbling before impact.

 

[Petey308]

I guess I missed it, what was the issue with the first shot?

Nothing for sure wrong, but it's just implied I guess, in that it didn't react much to it and took the second shot.

So to be fair, the first shot might have been ok, but we didn't get any info that the wounding from it was more like expected.

So I'll defer to the OP to give us that info. My apologies if I jumped the gun there.

 

[Weaver93]

Nothing for sure wrong, but it's just implied I guess, in that it didn't react much to it and took the second shot.

So to be fair, the first shot might have been ok, but we didn't get any info that the wounding from it was more like expected.

So I'll defer to the OP to give us that info. My apologies if I jumped the gun there.

Not at all….I thought I missed something. I wasn't sure what "high spine" meant.

 

[Koda_]

So to be fair, the first shot might have been ok, but we didn't get any info that the wounding from it was more like expected.

I think we did. He recovered his elk with only 2 shots and its pretty clear it wasnt the second one that brought it down.

 

[David_h]

My first shot went high as I missed heart/lungs but did hit spine. The second shot (this bullet) does have a bent ogive. I didn't notice any brush or grass but cannot rule it out. My best guess based on all info and your feedback is that bullet tumbled upon impact but not before getting the little mushroom started. This would also explain the bent ogive and the short penetration.

 

[Petey308]

My first shot went high as I missed heart/lungs but did hit spine. The second shot (this bullet) does have a bent ogive. I didn't notice any brush or grass but cannot rule it out. My best guess based on all info and your feedback is that bullet tumbled upon impact but not before getting the little mushroom started. This would also explain the bent ogive and the short penetration.

How'd the wound channel look for the first shot? I know you didn't recover the bullet, but did it look like the bullet expanded and shedded the petals? You should have seen quite a bit of damage in the area where that would have occurred. If not, it's possible that one didn't really expand either.

 

[Shane Lindsey]

Have you checked your twist rate? Not just what is advertised/stamped on the barrel? I ordered a 10 tw and it turned out a 10.25. Had issues with long bullets and that is how I found out when I pushed the patch through and tested it.

Also thinking that the shot was a quartering/raking shot and maybe deflected on impact just enough that it didn't get to fill the HP with enough jelly to cause the opening. Kind of like a skipmark before finally getting into the body

 

[Petey308]

Have you checked your twist rate? Not just what is advertised/stamped on the barrel? I ordered a 10 tw and it turned out a 10.25. Had issues with long bullets and that is how I found out when I pushed the patch through and tested it.

Also thinking that the shot was a quartering/raking shot and maybe deflected on impact just enough that it didn't get to fill the HP with enough jelly to cause the opening. Kind of like a skipmark before finally getting into the body

I don't know, .25" in twist rate difference isn't a make or break difference in most cases. But I agree it's something that can easily be checked and ruled out.

I'd also like to believe that a bullet touted as a superior hunting bullet ought to be able to perform better than its competitors in regards to raking shots. Again, if it's that sensitive, it's hard to accept in my mind.

If done right though, a better design with a tip can help with raking shots, so to get to the question of the OP, I hope the HHTs would perform better in the same scenario.

 

[HARPERC]

I don't know, .25" in twist rate difference isn't a make or break difference in most cases. But I agree it's something that can easily be checked and ruled out.

I would agree with this bullet, and stated twist this much isn't an issue.

I've seen over an inch in custom barrels.

 

[snox801]

Any chance there was brush in the way?
Its possible the hollowpoint tip got mangled in the feeding process, or if it was damaged slightly before using and unnoticed... the new HHT tip eliminates that risk. It sounds like the first one did its job so Im guessing tip damage on the second shot.

If that was the case it would have penetrated farther as stated above. I think that post was correct it wasn't stable.

 

[Petey308]

If that was the case it would have penetrated farther as stated above. I think that post was correct it wasn't stable.

First shot should key-holed too then, right? Why would only the second shot be unstable and not penetrate?

 

[snox801]

Soft copper, small hole, no broaching, no other method/mechanism to assist with reliable expansion. This all equals to being susceptible to the tip necking over and actually resisting expansion and working properly. If you don't believe me, explain this and the others out there like it so that we can understand. Blaming wrong twist rate and a bad batch of copper is not acceptable to me because it means the bullets are too finicky and require everything to be just right. That's just never going to happen realistically and reliably out there. Sure, if you're way off on twist rate maybe, but I haven't seen anyone being way off on the twist rate requirement.

I have seen this multiple times with Hammers and is why I currently avoid them. Sure, they've worked very well for many people, but there's a lot more poor results than you actually see in this forum. The bigger the sample size seems to get (people using them) the more results like this we are seeing. I don't use many other bullets anymore for similar reasons. This is not a jab at Hammer specifically, just my thoughts on this thread and experience given. This is something that can be fixed. This is only a jab at the current performance of this bullet design. The tipped versions have the potential of fixing some of these issues, but it'll depend on what else they've done to them. I have some for examining and testing, I just need the time to get to them.

I'm sorry this happened to you, but unfortunately I can't say I'm surprised. I hope you figure out a good solution moving forward, whatever that ends up being.

I'm not sure why you would say that? It could be twist. I can say I shoot more game each year than most. Over 100 game animals a year. I have never had this happen with a hammer or cutting edge bullet. I've had failures of Barnes and other brands but even if your tip theory was right with no expansion how did it not penetrate farther. I've seen one similar in CO on an elk. He found his bullet was stable enough to keep it straight on paper but tumbled as soon as it hit flesh. Dropped to the heavy hammer about the same weight and the issue went away.

 

[snox801]

First shot should key-holed too then, right? Why would only the second shot be unstable and not penetrate?

Think it's not keyhole enough twist to stabilize flight but on game not enough. It's been covered before with these and other bullets.