A deer for the books

Gday 2 buffalo I'll try to be brief & not derail as this data collected is one that is going to be useful I think for the company but only got 1 day in testing as my body shut down ( back problems but all cool )
Still got great data on 28 critters with some real low velocity impacts range of impact
1500 to 2350 fps

I'll leave all the results till I can put them together & complete my data is part of this which will be done asap
Cheers
Ps forgot to quote your post & don't know how to apply now but I'm sure you know what I was quoting
 
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Gday bill

One thing about a pass thru shot...... whether arrow or bullet.....
a pass thru means the animal did not absorb all energy intended....
my biggest buck at 40 yds with a 30-06 180 gr.corlokt bullet.....
neither bullet passed thru..... they were each found on the opposite side of chest just under the hide.
He was ready to leap at the first shot and I hit him again in the chest....partial step... dead.....
Both chest shots..... not spine or brain shots.He absorbed all the energy from 2 bullets...
Let's delve a little deeper
Dumping all the energy in the critter is useless if the dump is in the wrong place

This can be from a poor placed shot ( eg a broadside gut shot etc ) to a pill that isn't capable as we have pushed it past it's limitation's & it's fairly common & why you here great pill just keep off bone

I'll delve a little deeper in another post
Cheers
 
Gday QSYB1

I'm not 100% on just a placement but do agree a different placed shot would be a different outcome with this pill

Here's what I'm interpreting from the pictures after studying the actual pictures more yep I think it's angled more than I first thought
Yellow spine red pill path View attachment 426104View attachment 426105View attachment 426106View attachment 426107
Bottom 3 pics are samba top one just reference Still not saying pill failure just it wasn't upto the task & goes with what bob put up previously on the small wound
The energy has mainly been dumped in the on shoulder & your left with a long narrow wound till the pill stopped
The shape charge is all wrong for this shot placement

I'm not having a go @ anyone just saying it as I see it so please no offence intended to anyone & please pull those pictures apart as that's how we will learn
I'll confirm angle asap
Cheers
These pictures with the red lines help me to see that there was quite a steep uphill angle on this shot--a lot more angle than I was thinking. This helps me see that this really was a placement issue because even though the bullet penetrated almost all the way through, it just didn't pass through anything vital. Now I'm not so sure that an exit in that spot would have put him down. Probably lucky for ya'll that it didn't exit and didn't die; since ya'll were able to get him 6 months later (thank God for that!)

We had a similar experience at our camp with a Whitetail buck. My friend told me he had shot a buck earlier during Muzzleloader season. About two months later I shot the same buck and was able to see the mostly healed Muzzleloader wound right in front of the shoulder. Even though my shot placement was good with a 270 WSM right through both shoulders scapula, he still managed to run into a thicket and bury himself in thick stuff before he went down. The incredible will to hide himself even right before death was astounding.
 
Gday Steve
Nice explanation 👍 I might complicate things a bit but I hope not
I think this was the classic high shoulder shot that so often gives very dramatic results. The bullet penetrated far enough but did little internal damage. I suppose if he hand been 1" higher the spine would have been impacted and his finishing shot would have been within minutes instead of six months. Hard to say he was really off his mark. His shot did hit the lungs. The problem here is bullet performance. Not bullet failure. This bullet worked as designed. Problem is the bullet squished / expanded too much on the impact causing it to lose to much velocity. It lost so much velocity that as it passed through the lungs it no longer made a large enough permanent wound to cause the vital tissue to bleed enough to shut off the CNS. Also the nice rounded mushroom gently parting its way through the vital tissue doing little tearing. This is the problem with the theory that bullets should not pass through an animal in order to "dump" all of their energy into the animal. Bullets do not have sensors that tell them when to expand and when to stop. Every bullet begins to rapidly slow down upon impact lessoning the ability to do damage until it stops and no longer does any damage. If somehow this bullet could have magically hit as it did but then retained all of it's velocity all the way through the animal then the result would have been much different. We all know that no bullet can do that, but by design this bullet and other "energy dump" bullets are set up for failure when the impact velocity is too high or the initial impact is too dense. In this case both. High velocity impact on the shoulder. A bullet with more integrity that has more control over the amount of deformation and shed weight would have lost less velocity on the impact, passed through the vitals with more retained velocity creating a larger round channel that would have done more lung damage and spine damage. Then likely passing through the animal creating the exit hole. The exit hole is not what kills this animal. The retained velocity that made it possible to exit is what would have killed it the first time, 6 months ago.

I don't think there was failure here by hunter or bullet. Just poor bullet performance.
This is the one we need to delve deeper to get the greatest understanding

First off let's work with the situation here
Hit the shoulder & looks like a knuckle shot or just on top of it on the thicker part of the scapula on a upward angle
This has caused with this type of pill also frangible & even the bonded @ these impacts & weight old SD comes to play here & resistance which created a dump of the majority of the energy in the shoulder

Broadly speaking Move to monos regardless of type ( mushroom or shedding ) @ these velocities & the bubble would have been longer & once through the shoulder & entering the chest cavity the damage would have been from a little to a lot more damage ( pill design here also has a bearing but not as much as lower velocity impacts ) or step up another 200 or 400 & mono also can suffer from the eneregy dump scenario & @ the speed here a fair chance bone fragment would have caused more damage internally

It's finding the velocity windows that actually kill well across all resistances we encounter not just killing that is the one we can learn more on & one that is fascinating to some myself included

The hard part for some of us to understand is pill preformance so let's look @ gel ( yep hate it but it's a great visual )
The bubble helps us understand a bit more & the permanent wound channel is just as good but I don't like comparing that to critters as so many resistances throughout a critters that a pill encounters so let's look @ this pic 8C78CE21-C8B2-42A6-8500-F8535A04F151.jpeg& if we could guarantee that across varying resistances we could get this section with the yellow arrow in the critters vitals across various angles we have the ultimate pill design but a pill dosent magically stop there as you stated & we have tapered wound channels in every brand some long & narrow some short & wide others a good mix of the 2 it's when we get the last 2 blocks on the stopped pill side we get poor performance
Now we add the resistance side & these bubbles change again & where we can be left wanting a bit more to a lot & this in my opinion is where this pill was lacking & we got more of these last 2 blocks than the first 2 of where it mattered the resistance also shortened the first 2 blocks especially the first from what I've seen on countless animals & knuckle like hits

A exit from what I've seen is not just getting a exit as on the pic above if you can get a exit in the first block you've got a extremely potent pill but if the first 2 blocks are not in the vitals & the last blocks are in the vials & exit occurs that's useless also
It's getting the correct bubble to get the best result's possible & I need to make this clear not all bubbles are equal even though in gel they look very similar it's in critters that we see different results

Here's also a good comparison from Norma 234CD12F-74A4-4A31-B3F5-2EFB7DD22EAD.pngon what pill will potentially do what on a average base now I can guarantee these will change on different resistances & Norma is not really to blame as they can't give a exact result across so many variables but what we have today is a better idea of where they will work than the old type pills we used to use & there recommended use on what critters I think it's our help in giving advice to the the newcomers on lines in the sand to be careful of eg when you hear keep off bone ! explain is better than saying nothing & let them get bad results

Hope that all makes sense & just how I look @ things
Looking forward to the other side of the coin
Cheers
 
Gday hemiford
What are folks's opinions and experiences with Swift A-frames ?

Overall swift aframe are a fairly reliable pill from yesterday & it's interesting that some ph still swear by them ( my mate in Zimbabwe one of them but he had a bit of bad results last year so I will hopefully talk to him in June to nut out what happened) but I'd say the popularity is falling away as better bullets become available 🤷‍♂️
Personally I liked them until I had pills that turned on shoulder impact slightly to severely . angles no doubt had a bit to play here also but if a pill turns / yaws all bets are off for me & I think this potentially may have also contributed to this outcome with the corelox on this stag but I can't say only theory base of what I've witnessed previously but I didn't autopsy so I can only assume

Hope that helps
Cheers
 
Gday Jon
These pictures with the red lines help me to see that there was quite a steep uphill angle on this shot--a lot more angle than I was thinking. This helps me see that this really was a placement issue because even though the bullet penetrated almost all the way through, it just didn't pass through anything vital. Now I'm not so sure that an exit in that spot would have put him down. Probably lucky for ya'll that it didn't exit and didn't die; since ya'll were able to get him 6 months later (thank God for that!)

We had a similar experience at our camp with a Whitetail buck. My friend told me he had shot a buck earlier during Muzzleloader season. About two months later I shot the same buck and was able to see the mostly healed Muzzleloader wound right in front of the shoulder. Even though my shot placement was good with a 270 WSM right through both shoulders scapula, he still managed to run into a thicket and bury himself in thick stuff before he went down. The incredible will to hide himself even right before death was astounding.
I'd say it's lucky also no exit as another point for infection to enter

Yes some critters amaze me & why I go with the guys previously don't stop shooting till they stop running especially big critters then I still like to put a insurance shot in them
Cheers
 
I think the odds of a bullet crossing the mediastinum without hitting something lethal is very low. Then to get a lung injury without it being lethal through a pneumothorax or tension pneumo. Say what you will about the bullet or the animal's will but that animal was just lucky. In all my years in the ER I've only seen one human with that kind of luck, even with handgun ballistics.
 
Gday rmorris
I think the odds of a bullet crossing the mediastinum without hitting something lethal is very low. Then to get a lung injury without it being lethal through a pneumothorax or tension pneumo. Say what you will about the bullet or the animal's will but that animal was just lucky. In all my years in the ER I've only seen one human with that kind of luck, even with handgun ballistics.
Can you please help me understand a little more
On this picture
69AC85EB-185E-4426-8282-DF81D015CD60.jpeg


is the yellow arrow old scaring
The blue arrow the fresh wound
I'm actually in a discussion with a mate so a bit of clarity would be welcome
Also Once scaring has occurred the lung can't function in that part & wont repair itself

Lastly
I don't think anyone is disputing this has been luck but I do think from my dealings in the dairy & beef industry some animals just have a greater will to live & just keep fighting where others just give up the fight & from animals in hunting or culling some are tougher than others even within the same species so I may be taking out of context your position on a will to live so accept my apology in advance if so but I do believe it is there just like in humans

I think where some of us are coming from is the terminal side & trying to get the quickest possible kill so let's relate that to your ER experience on the whole once someone is shot till the time they get to the er it must be considerable time so on average how many make it to the er vrs those that don't ?

I want the animals I shoot not to make it to the ER & if I could not take a step on impact
I mean no offence in the above & could you please put those big words in this simple persons words even pictures would be appreciated
Cheers
 
Those Red Stags can be very tenacious.They are not in the same class as a whitetail or mule deer.Their hide is much thicker,more meat and heavier bones.They are basically elk since they can cross with elk. Can they be killed easily with a well placed shot?Yes.When everything goes right it's easy,but sometimes things just don't go that way.Congrats to you on a great recovery of the same animal.I had quite an experience with one myself and was quite surprised the amount of punishment they can endure.Neck shots are great until they don't break the spine or the bullet doesn't deliver the right amount of shock to the spinal cord.The other thing that can be bad about neck shots is,the neck is the toughest muscle on the animal.Though it has large arteries and veins around the windpipe that can dump a lot of blood if ruptured,miss those and your not going to get much blood if the animal is not dropped right there on the spot because the rest of the tissue has very tiny veins and arteries.I recently had a bad experience with neck shots on a red stag I killed.These bulls get rather large necks during the rut and that can also give you more room for error.This bull I was after never would give me a good body shot.He was in some brush with three other bulls.All I could get was a high neck shot,so I took it.I don't know,I could have clipped the top of the brush before the bullet hit the stag,but he left with the three other bulls after I shot.I went to the spot where he was standing and sure enough I hit him.I found bone,some tissue and and just a few tiny specks of blood,but that petered out after about 50yds or so.After about a half an hour of searching,I finally located the bull again about 200yds from where I originally shot him.I could see the blood on his neck,but the only shot offered was a high neck shot.I shot him and knocked him down for about 15 seconds and he got up and slowly ran away.I knew I hit him good and figured he shouldn't go too far.Went to the spot I shot him,found a lot more blood this time,but after about 30yds or so,it once again petered out.After searching again for about a half an hour in thick thorny brush,tall grass and weeds,I found the bull about a 150yds away from where I shot him for the second time.And again the only shot offered was a neck shot.I shot and he went down for good this time,third time was a charm.The bullet I was using was a 180gr Nosler Ballistic Tip,fired from my 28" barreled 30-06,mv 3000fps.I've used this same bullet from my 30-06 and 300 Win Mag on a couple of other stags with great one shot,dropped on the spot body shot kills,so I'm not going to blame the bullet.It just shows you sometimes things just don't go right.I was really glad I was able to recover this animal.I did recover the bullet from the first shot.Like I said,I may have clipped some brush before the bullet hit him.The bullet hit the tongue,lower jaws,blowing both of them and most of the sinus cavity completely out.I found the jacket of the bullet resting against the spine.The other two completely passed through.Second shot raked the side of the spine,the third breaking the spine.Talk about tenacious.The recovered jacket of the 180gr BT weighted 70grs,expanded width was one inch and held together quite well considering the amount of bone contact.


 
Good story...... real life experience.... my rule of thumb..... if they go down.... and are trying to get up shoot again.....
I had a 5x5 elk running at 215 yds.... 300 WM.... 180 N.B.Tip.... as above.....
he dropped on shot #1...... chest shot.....was struggling to get up......shot again chest......
the 3rd. time he had his head up another thru the neck...... FINALLY he was done.....
As I've said before.... I believe some animals can run on adrenalin...
 
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