6.5mm - 25cal = .007"

[Freedom83]

TX Badger,
I have 4 264 Win Mags & was wondering the same question. Dang, I must be running the wrong load. Both of my 26" barreled 264's push that smk about 2900 on a warm day.

 

[Don A Parsons]

And a 270 is closer to the real 7mm.
It's actually 7.036mm if I recall .Ha

The 7mm/ 284 is 7.214mm

Funny how people get fouled when it comes to getting the real numbers sorted. LOL

 

[257 Blackjack]

When loaded to their full potential I would say the equal, both exceeding each other in different areas. Take the new 131 black jack and it makes the 25 cal a different critter. However, despite their advertising claims the difference between it and a 6.5mm with a 150 smk aren't as much as they say. I've ran the numbers for multiple scenarios and the 6.5mm always hits with more energy at long distance with pretty much identical wind drift. The 25 cal will always have the advantage of speed, and less recoil.

Out of the same parent case the 131 will come out ahead in Wind, Trajectory, and Energy for about 1500 yards to a mile in every instance we have looked at it with actual achievable muzzle velocity data.

I knew this would be the case in the general sense, the 131 ACE is one of the most efficient for weight copper and lead bullets ever released to the market, if not the lowest with the lowest G7/I7 form factor.

The 150 smk is a great design but pushed from the same parent case due to achievable muzzle velocities it will take serious range for the 150 smk to catch up.

As I mentioned on another thread, our "Claims" of 0.330-0.333 G7 were simply reported test data. The market has affirmed that these numbers were in fact cautiously low. Most competitors are reporting 0.345-350 G7. There are two major reasons for this - #1. in the production run we focused on getting the noses sharper and #2 our boat tail is the longest-for-caliber of any we have measurements on.

When Blackjack Bullet #2 comes out this year, we will have to endure another round of healthy skepticism from the market. : )

 

[257 Blackjack]

What velocity can be expected with either out of 25.06?
My 264 runs 130 gr. Swift Scirocco at about 3100 to keep it sub MOA.

 

[elkaholic]

I've run the numbers and as much as I like the 6.5's, with this bullet at this time fired from the same case, the 25 wins farther than most people could possibly hit anything!!

 

[257 Blackjack]

I was hoping to hear more on performance from the guys who got the first batch of barrels and reamers to shoot the 131 BJ bullets.

25x47 running about 80 fps slow of normal 2975 speed the cartridge likes.

Another fella with a 1 trip load development. Good 10 round group for field style rifle.

I'd have to dig to see what cartridge this was. definitely a field-tac rifle. No BR or F class guys have saddled up yet.

Another 25 Creed iirc

 

[257 Blackjack]

To say one has an advantage over the other you have to compare apples To apples. Comparing a 131gr in a .25 to a 140gr in .264 is not really the same. That's similar to comparing a 115 gr .24 to a 115gr. In a .25. If you scale the bullets a fair comparison would be a 150-155 gr bullet in a .264 and the heavy bullet will win out on ballistics.

Anyways I have both 25-06 and 6.5-06. Even through the 25 is ballistically less than the 6.5 it always manages to find its self out of the safe for at least one hunt. It is still a great round for its purpose.

131 gr in 0.257 scales to 141.9 gr in 264 FYI.

139 gr in 257 reaches your estimation of 150 gr and 143 gr in 257 reaches your estimation of 155 gr in 264.

Out of the same parent cases the 131 ACE will outrun any 6.5 bullet in Wind, Trajectory, and Kinetic Energy. It now takes the 6.5 to step up one power level, go from standard case to magnum, or magnum to a bigger magnum, to level this out.

For a great practiced shooter of course this does not matter, but for those wanting the most wind certainty they can get and enjoy the benefits of flatter trajectory and a bit more energy on target, those are just secondary benefits.

The big 6.5s will catch up eventually, about one mile downrange. : )

 

[257 Blackjack]

TX Badger, my Oehler chrono tells me my 25.06 runs the 110 at about 3140.
A 284 version should be about the same(?). Are you telling me this Blackjack bullet will run 3200?
Not trying to pee on the fire, I'm cautious. I'm a 25 fan too.

 

[257 Blackjack]

He specifically said that the 25 Creed was shooting the blackjack at 3000. I've never seen anyone shoot a 6.5 Creed with 130 grain bullets at 3000 so I'm just wondering how that's done with all things being equal except bore diameter. In my experience usually you get faster speeds with the same weight of bullet in bigger bore diameters. For instance, you can shoot a 168 grain from a .308 faster than a 168 from a 7-08.

We spent about 2 years combing through different bullet geometries and what resulted in what effects. In regards to attainable muzzle velocity we honed in on the exact Bearing Surface Length we felt would allow the bullets to run as fast as possible without sacrificing accuracy for the average reloader.

We knew the 131 ACE would trend on the fast side of the bullet selection, but like the BC it came out a bit ahead of our calculations.

If you can run the 117 sierra SP xxxx fps in your rifle, you can run the 131 ACE right up to that speed as well. We have seen this in a number of barrels since we break the rifles in with 117s and do comparisons this way. Signs of pressure show up at nearly the same speeds.

This is simply due to geometry differences.

 

[257 Blackjack]

I missed where he slipped that part in. I agree might be a little optimistic. Especially the x47 at 2950

Every 25x47 we have chambered or had chambered has been capable of 2975 fps. Many shooters are finding their Bartlein and Kreiger barrels prefer to run at 2875-2910 fps. The Rock Creek and X-Calibers I can remember enjoy the 2940-2970 speeds.

We really don't mess around trying too many powders either. Just H4350 and some guys are running Varget. We haven't chased top end speeds - just top speeds from powders we know to be accurate in these cartridges.

 

[Creedmoor shooter]

Out of the same parent case the 131 will come out ahead in Wind, Trajectory, and Energy for about 1500 yards to a mile in every instance we have looked at it with actual achievable muzzle velocity data.

I knew this would be the case in the general sense, the 131 ACE is one of the most efficient for weight copper and lead bullets ever released to the market, if not the lowest with the lowest G7/I7 form factor.

The 150 smk is a great design but pushed from the same parent case due to achievable muzzle velocities it will take serious range for the 150 smk to catch up.

As I mentioned on another thread, our "Claims" of 0.330-0.333 G7 were simply reported test data. The market has affirmed that these numbers were in fact cautiously low. Most competitors are reporting 0.345-350 G7. There are two major reasons for this - #1. in the production run we focused on getting the noses sharper and #2 our boat tail is the longest-for-caliber of any we have measurements on.

When Blackjack Bullet #2 comes out this year, we will have to endure another round of healthy skepticism from the market. : )

Just out of curiosity, what speeds are you running the 131 at vs the 150 smk in say a 25 creed vs a 6.5 creed? I just want to hear what velocities your comparing the 25 too as I have some pretty extensive load development with the 6.5 and know how much velocity its capable of. Not knocking your bullets I think this is a great thing you guys are doing.

 

[257 Blackjack]

Just out of curiosity, what speeds are you running the 131 at vs the 150 smk in say a 25 creed vs a 6.5 creed? I just want to hear what velocities your comparing the 25 too as I have some pretty extensive load development with the 6.5 and know how much velocity its capable of. Not knocking your bullets I think this is a great thing you guys are doing.

What is the top velocity of a 150 in your 6.5 Creedmoor? What brass, barrel length, and powder?

 

[Creedmoor shooter]

What is the top velocity of a 150 in your 6.5 Creedmoor? What brass, barrel length, and powder?

150 smk in Peterson brass with rl-26 2815. 147 eld in hornady brass and rl-26 2903. 140 eld-m in hornady brass rl-26 2945(accuracy node). 140 eld hornady brass rl-17 2883 fps. 147 eld in hornady brass rl-27 2823. These are just some loads I've come up with over the past couple years that have ran well for me all out of a 26in barrel. I just started the 150 smk as winter came so I still have exploring to do there, and I ran out of rl-26 so I'm waiting to find more of that. If I ran the 150 smk in hornady brass it should equal or surpass the 147 due to the smaller bearing surface. Currently my load im running is a 140 eld in Peterson brass at 2773. It just shoots well there so I'm leaving it. Hornady brass gives me alot better velocity but peterson is way more consistent. Waiting on my barrel to get back from being threaded so I can do more development with the 150 and 147 with rl-16. I'm expecting to top out around 2775-2815ish. This is going to be in adg brass which so far from what I'm seeing can take more pressure than Peterson can. When I'm comparing I run the 150 smk at 2800 which is book max from sierra in a 24in barrel just in case my barrel is abnormal. All my calculations are run through hornadys app which has been spot on for me.

 

[257 Blackjack]

Just out of curiosity, what speeds are you running the 131 at vs the 150 smk in say a 25 creed vs a 6.5 creed? I just want to hear what velocities your comparing the 25 too as I have some pretty extensive load development with the 6.5 and know how much velocity its capable of. Not knocking your bullets I think this is a great thing you guys are doing.

I began working on this AB Analytics comparison of 150 SMK and 131 ACE before your response but these data points should illustrate the pack with +/- taken into account. I added the prototype ACE BC as a comparison and it really highlights what a few points of BC can do at extended ranges.

All of these cartridges are in fact badass, especially compared to available performance just 6-10 years ago, so a deer isn't going to know the difference one way or the other. The main difference will be recoil to the shooter.

These numbers were ran in AB Analytics at 0 Density Altitude.

- 150 SMK at 2775 fps,
- 150 SMK at 2850 fps,
- 131 ACE at 2975 fps (think 25x47L in 26"),
- 131 ACE prototype bullet at 3050 fps,
- 131 ACE production bullet at 3050 fps.

I usually don't include cartridge designations on these comparisons, but it is truly exceptional what the efficient little cartridges can do with a good bullet. For most cases is it worth burning the powder in a 25x284 or 25-06 to get to 3140-3200 fps over 2975-3070 fps? Maybe. Maybe not.

Trajectory: trajectory isn't everything, but in many instances reducing Max Ordinate will result in less actual wind in the field since your bullet is staying closer to the ground out of higher speed wind bands. Among these efficient examples this has less impact, but the slowest ACE is 4 feet flatter at 1300 yards than the faster 150 SMK.

Wind Deflection: nothing insane here in Wind but the prototype ACE and the 25x47 will run neck and neck with the 150 SMK 6.5 Creed at 2850 to a mile. Call it a wash but a fast 25 Creed is about 8% ahead of a fast 6.5 150smk Creed at 600, 1000, and 1760 yards. Depending on where your rifle wants to run this may be faster or slower in each rifle so call it a wash.

Energy: Truly inconsequential differences amongst the lot. Plenty to do the job, but the 131 ACE out of a 25 Creed (H4350 haven't messed with RL26 or other speedy powders) edges out the 150 smk. Again, both of these pairings are tremendously ahead of other bullets in the market.

At the end of the day they are both great options. For higher volume shooters achieving the same performance with less recoil would get the nod. For guys that like having a lot of bullet options, there's a nod there.

Blackjack Bullets will be releasing the second high BC 257 option this year and the BC is only going UP!

The new bullet will really make the AI and Magnum Cartridges shine with new light. 25-06 AI, 25 SAUM, 25 PRC, and 257 WBY are going to be flat hard hitting monsters, still with pretty reasonable recoil.

The new bullet will also be very at home in 25x47 and be very good in the wind for matches.

I have to make a run to the rigs so I won't be back online for a few hours.