460 Rowland

[VernAK]

Our LGS [Granite View Sports] sells a pile of the Rowlands on the FN frame. A shipment arrives every week and buyers are waiting. Two very experienced wilderness traveler friends bought em and like em. I haven't caved in yet but with arthritis in my hand, it may be time to try one.

 

[TXAoudadKlr]

You should be training for such a day with whatever you're carrying! Spray and Pray is nonsense! And if you train while under stress you'll perform if such a day comes. Without getting too sophisticated in set up you can spray paint a frontal bear silhouette on multiple targets and have them going from 3- 20 yards in 3-5 yard increments. Start far and work in. Hell throw in a timer to add stress with an accuracy standard.

As mentioned both 10mm or 500S&W can be a one shot stop but if not on the mark I fell better putting more holes in the target

 

[Coldfinger]

Well my opinion don't mean much but after having the opportunity to stop a hell bent 350 pound black bear at a distance of the scope is full of black and follow up shots were over the top of the scope at 5 yards all with a 300 Weatherby mag! Total of 3 shots all point blank range. First shot took out front teeth tongue jaw and put a baseball size hole out the back of the neck (yes it fractured a B&C scull as well taxidermist said it was unmeasurable due to shock basically destroying the scull plates). Second shot dead center in brisket as she was standing up on her rear legs.but totally incapacitated. Third shot as she was dragging herself broadside (probably just my adrenaline but she was still moving). The kicker of it is that she wasn't charging at all I was tracking her through one of our famous Southern NY dogwood swamps and another hunter must spooked her and she used the same tracks I was crawling in as an escape route!!!! A handgun I'd carry any revolver from .44 mag to .500S&W with hard cast flat point bullets. I wouldn't want to stop anything charging with a handgun but it's better than a slingshot!!!!

 

[Coldfinger]

I would not recommend those for bear or anything else dangerous in the woods. I've had more close calls with moose than bears where I live. Last year a guy got run up a tree by an average sow black bear and he had already hit her with several rounds from his .40 S&W on her initial charge. He finished her when she came up the tree after him. Lucky his low powered pistol had 15 rounds in it, and lucky he had enough time to get multiple rounds into the bear. If he was surprised by the bear in the brush he would have been mauled. My vote is carry the largest caliber you can shoot and don't worry about the round count. One crushing bullet impact is better than spray and pray. I carry a 44 mag or 45 Colt with high pressure handloads. 10mm was designed for shooting 2 leg varmints so I would be hesitant to use anything smaller.

Nice to hear someone else still carries a 45 colt!!!

 

[Possum Cop]

Bullet construction seems to have a large influence on penetration and expansion if you look at ballistic gelatin, pine board and other ballistic tests.

If you get a good heavy jacket soft point or hollow point 10mm bullet and load it around the original 10mm velocity instead of the weak box ammo out there, I think you could probably get 16-20" of penetration with expansion.

That's on the low end of acceptable but if you can get 6-7 shots on target, I believe you could kill a bear. Having 15 shots to get 6-7 hits seems pretty reasonable. In a charging bear situation, I doubt I could get off two accurate shots with my .475 Linebaugh. In that situation it seems like one miss makes you bear food. Which odds are better? I'm on the fence.

As for 10mm vs 460 Rowland with those numbers, 10mm looks like it has equal or better sectional density and probably better velocity which to me says better penetration. I have a feeling that a good jhp 10mm will expand better than a 255 grain hard cast in a 460 Rowland.

There are lots of variables and every bear defense is different so you're not going to know if your choice worked until you get attacked.

I know if I'm in that situation, I'll have my Glock 21 with a 6" 10mm conversion barrel and I'll cook up some bear ammo but I'll also have my .475 Linebaugh and make a game time decision.

Using the same weight bullets, the .460 Roland has more velocity than the 10mm. Bigger diameter plus more velocity = more power.
.460 Roland
The 185 grain is shooting 1575 FPS, the 230 grain HP is 1350 FPS, the 240 grain HP is 1300 FPS, and the 255 grain Hard Cast Lead is 1300 FPS.
10MM:
180 grain DPX 1350 FPS, 200 grain FMJ 1275 FPS, 220 grain FN 1200 FPS, 230 EDA 1040 FPS.
This data came from the manufacturers websites.

 

[6.5-300 BEE]

What kinda bear ?

If Mr Griz, no semi-auto will cut it.

Minimum (what I tote) 44 magnum W/300gr hardcasts. S&W 329 is my choice. It's light.

If you insist on semi, the 10mm Grand (from Slovakia) is great. I own one. Wonderful trigger, high cap, accurate and reasonable recoil due to rotating bbl design. Might do the job w/CorBon solids.

 

[Possum Cop]

What kinda bear ?

If Mr Griz, no semi-auto will cut it.

Minimum (what I tote) 44 magnum W/300gr hardcasts. S&W 329 is my choice. It's light.

If you insist on semi, the 10mm Grand (from Slovakia) is great. I own one. Wonderful trigger, high cap, accurate and reasonable recoil due to rotating bbl design. Might do the job w/CorBon solids.

I agree, I'd rather put one .338 Lapua 300 grain in a charging bear than a pistol round of any type but if I literally had my pants down and had a choice between a handgun and my knife, I'd really like to have something that goes boom, boom.!

 

[Possum Cop]

So, the assumption made of spray and pray not being a reliable strategy can be questioned.

Probably valid enough to do so, because here's the question.

In a moment of extreme danger under extreme duress, does a human have the capability to bear down on his sights and accurately place one shot (low number of shots with the aim essentially being to stop with one shot)
Or
Because of the blurred vision/tunnel vision, shaking from adrenaline, and so on, will firing volume be the way to the promise land?

That is to say, if I put you under extreme danger and duress, put a baseball at 20 yards, are you more likely to hit that target by taking your time and sending one shot, or by dumping your mag? (regardless the fact that you're only getting 2 seconds here anyway)

Now, the answer here may actually be multiple shots, because in that condition we may not realistically be able to focus on our sights to precisely place the one shot, but there's an asterisk here.

So, if we say multiple shots, now we have a problem of, can we get off multiple shots while maintaining a degree of accuracy, pulling the trigger so fast you clip your own chin doesn't do you much good. This is a big question too, if a bear is going to cover 15 yards or so per second, can you hit the baseball at 15 yards? How many shots can you get off in one second?

Now, the asterisk on the one shot scenario.
The one shot can be whenever, you can wait until the bear is 5 feet away, can you hit that baseball now... this may be statistically the only "right" answer to this conundrum.

Now the bear is bigger than a baseball, but the "stop zone," may only be baseball size territory, again, hitting the bear doesn't necessarily matter, you have to stop it, we don't care if the bear dies eventually, you must live.

Again: all this while under extreme danger and duress

So, at what range can you reliably hit a baseball, how many shots would it take you at 15 yards? How many shots can you get off in the one second that bear travels 15 yards?
How many shots will it take you at 30 yards? How many shots can you get off in the 2 seconds it takes the bear to cover that distance?

Plan for the worst hope for the best may really turn up that the answer is one shot, you HAVE to hit the brain, you have one shot, doesn't matter if he starts 30 yards away, shoot him 3 feet off the end of your gun if you have to, but one shot in the brain is it.

That may statistically be it, scary or not.
And yes, even so, there will be bears killed with 22s, people that sling volume of shots and stop the bear, people that quick draw and stop the bear stone dead at 20 yards.

The question here is if we had 10,000 bear charges and we could only chose ONE method of defense, what method, statistically, keeps the most people alive. ( I know not all charges are the same, some never get the opportunity to shoot, some get off several shots, plan for the worst means we plan for no shot, but that gives us nowhere to go, so we have to plan for at least the opportunity to shoot)

Is it "spray and pray," or is it "one and done."

Now, if the answer is spray and pray, I've got to think that then the question of gun and caliber become easier. Gun, well, it's spray and pray, you want all the rounds you can get in the gun, not on your hip in an additional magazine. And reliable of course, but 20 rounds beats 10 here. Comfortable, great pointing in your hand, fast shooting, many rounds, bullet that will penetrate through skull. More caliber than is needed means more recoil than is needed which isn't what we want for this strategy. Many shots on target very quickly is the key

If it's one and done, you need to come to terms with one shot is all you're taking, doesn't matter if you can't fire a 500 S&W 10 times in a row, you're relying on one shot, can you hit that baseball with that 500 S&W once, at whatever distance, 5 feet, dead bear is dead bear, you walk away is the point.

But I suppose at that point, one and done could be done with smaller too, heck, if you're hitting the brain you're hitting the brain, you just need to know you'll get the straightline penetration needed to go through the skull.

500 may allow a little more wiggle room in terms of the size of that bullseye though. As in, you didn't directly strike the brain like you would have needed to do with the 10mm, but because of the forces at play, blowing his head apart by hitting any meaningful mass of it means killing the bear, thus you now have a ... grapefruit sized bullseye

Add into all that, this, penetrating bullets are non-expanding bullets. So, does something like the 500 S&W, because of the drastic increase in energy, temporary and permanent wound channel, bone busting power, create the option to go center chest and stop the bear too?

If the bear is 30 yards out, can someone with a 500 or like, center up the chest and maybe have a secondary bullseye that's... IDK, a volleyball or what not size? Do the bigger bores create another opportunity not present with the smaller calibers.

So, quick first shot center chest, now focus on this next shot being the last, wait for a guaranteed hit of that baseball in between his eyes and quickly jerk the trigger.

I would pick a 500 nitro express double rifle in this scenerio.

 

[Buck Fever]

Using the same weight bullets, the .460 Roland has more velocity than the 10mm. Bigger diameter plus more velocity = more power.
.460 Roland
The 185 grain is shooting 1575 FPS, the 230 grain HP is 1350 FPS, the 240 grain HP is 1300 FPS, and the 255 grain Hard Cast Lead is 1300 FPS.
10MM:
180 grain DPX 1350 FPS, 200 grain FMJ 1275 FPS, 220 grain FN 1200 FPS, 230 EDA 1040 FPS.
This data came from the manufacturers websites.

I'm sure I could load 10mm quite a bit hotter. I kind of doubt much is left on the table with those 460 Rowland numbers.

Also 10mm holds 15 rounds to the 460's 13.

I look at a 200 grain 10mm. You can find good and tough 200 grain JHPs for 10mm and if you get it moving it will mushroom and penetrate.

I can't see the numbers on this page but I bet it has sectional density better than a 230 grain .451" bullet.

What do you think 230 grain .451 bullets are made for? If you said a .45 ACP with about 850 fps muzzle velocity, you are right. If you run it at 1350 fps, what do you think it is going to do? Fragment like a varmint bullet is my guess.

A hard cast lead might penetrate in a 460 Rowland but it's not going to expand much.

Numbers can tell a story but they can leave some important details out.

In my mind, velocity and sectional density lead to penetration unless your bullet expands or fragments.

I know that certain loads for .475 Linebaugh can do 48" of penetration through the skull and head of a bull elephant. It sounds great but unless you shoot a bear lengthwise, a lot of that is going to get wasted so there is a balance and I would want penetration with expansion, dumping as much energy as possible and making big gaping wound channels.

Does anyone have a ballistic substitute for bear? I bet its tougher than ballistic gelatin but if you can't test your penetration, expansion and weight retention, you are not seeing the story the numbers dont tell you.

 

[Possum Cop]

These are the ballistics straight off of the Roland page. I understand what you are saying but you would have to push the 10mm at dangerous chamber pressure to do what the .460 is doing velocity wise with the hard bullets.

Sectional density is like BC if you can't hit your target it doesn't matter what the numbers tell you. Everything is perfect in text books and on websites.

I've been handgun hunting for 31 years and I make kill shots when the time comes. I've hunted with almost every cartridge mentioned in this thread and I still own a 10mm, a few 44 Magnums, .460 Roland, a .460 S&W and a 30-06 Encore that I hunt with. I believe that they all have a place and a function where they are just about perfect for the task at hand but none of them do every task equally well.

 

[Buck Fever]

Sure, straight off a Rowland page. How good do you think they want to make 10mm look?

If you look at 10mm hand loads made for a Glock 20, they can get spicy. Then you look at how a conversion barrel in a Glock 21 has more steel in the barrel and a more fully supported chamber than a factory Glock barrel. It's not a good idea to try and run velocity that will blow up a Glock 20 but a conversion barrel is insurance.

A 460 Rowland barrel in a Glock 21 has less margin because it has the amount of steel Glock thinks is appropriate for .45 ACP except it's running 500 fps faster. The chamber is probably supported better but there isn't anywhere else to put more metal.

I don't know if there is a better platform for 460 Rowland. There probably isn't a cheaper one than a Glock 21. A 1911 seems like a bad choice to me, the barrel lugs and slide get beat up by .45 ACP if they aren't fit just right. You wind up with an expensive and highly stressed gun in a 460 Rowland 1911. I think I read FN and S&W are being used. I don't know anything about the durability of those.

If you are trading the durability and power of a super magnum revolver for capacity and speed in an semi-automatic pistol, I'm thinking you are going to want the most robust pistol you can find.

For me, 10mm in a Glock 21 with a 6" barrel for more muzzle velocity and an extended slide for more mass to keep slide velocity under control is a sweet spot and the bullets work with it to make a deep penetrating, expanding bullet wound without the need for a compensator.

Every way you go it seems like the negatives outweigh the positive until you jump to a 44 Magnum, 480 Ruger, .454 Casull or .475 Linebaugh. I would say .500 S&W but they are just so big I barely see them as handguns.

That's why I have a 10mm converted Glock 21 and my step up is a 475 Linebaugh.

 

[ZAK13]

I don't know if this would be of any value to you, but here goes. I did a not so scientific test about a year ago to see how many rounds I could get off and on target with various pistols/revovlers. I used a G20-10mm, and a G19-9mm, a Ruger SRH in 480, a Ruger GP100 in 357 , a Sig 1911-45acp, and borrowed a friends S&W 29-44mag & his model 500 with the 4" barrel. Between us we gathered various "bear loads" for the various firearms, Buffalo Bore, Double Tap, Grizzly & HSM. We timed ourselves at shooting a moving target that started out at 25 yards and would move toward us. In the end we found that we both managed to pull off more accurate shots, with the pistols and the 357 than with the larger bore revolvers in the simulated, stressful, "bear attack". All the ammo we found to be reliable and potent, and surprisingly, the 4" barreled S&W 500 I found to be rather pleasant to shoot.

 

[Buck Fever]

Were the lighter pistols "more accurate" or you had "more" accurate shots? If it was "more", did you time shots per second or anything like that?

I'm not Jerry Miculec so I know I'm not going to empty my 475 Linebaugh in 3 seconds but if you have shots per second and a realistic time frame for a bear attack, you can start to see which one can inflict the most damage with those less than perfect shots that dont drop the bear right away.

The best "worst case" scenario that could happen with any gun is that you shoot the bear several times but no perfect shot that drops it before it begins to maul you but it succumbs to its injuries before you die. Which gun is going to do the most damage? That's the one that has the best chance of killing it before it gets to you.

 

[josip89]

I dont think it is ''spray and pray" because You still need to aim but You have more bullets and You can shoot faster.

It would be perfect if someone have first hand experience to share about defense of atacking animal.