Your personal boundaries for case neck runout?

jebel

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I realize that standards for acceptable/intolerable case neck runout are individual and depend on the purpose of the load. I'd like to hear what your personal limits are. I'm talking about sized case neck runout (rather than bullet runout), and I'll further set the assumption that you're measuring at the center of the neck. Please feel free to qualify your personal standards by purpose for the load, cartridge, or whatever you think is important. Also, if you've been able to link a particular level of runout to a particular level of precision/imprecision downrange, that would be welcome information.

Thanks for the input.
 
The military considers match grade ammunition to have .003 or less bullet runout.
And a full length resized cartridge has more wiggle room to let the bullet be self aligning with the bore. Meaning the full length resized case will be more forgiving in the chamber than a neck sized case with less body clearance with the chamber.
 
And a full length resized cartridge has more wiggle room to let the bullet be self aligning with the bore. Meaning the full length resized case will be more forgiving in the chamber than a neck sized case with less body clearance with the chamber.

This is a good point. Essentially, full-length resizing is a means of mitigating the effects of neck runout, whatever the measurement of neck runout might be.
 
This is a good point. Essentially, full-length resizing is a means of mitigating the effects of neck runout, whatever the measurement of neck runout might be.

Below is from German Salazars "The Rifleman's Journal" website.

"a full-length sized case in which the neck is also fully sized. There is clearance at the neck and in the body of the case, the closest fit anywhere is the bullet in the throat. If the neck to bullet concentricity is good (although it needn't be perfect), then the bullet will find good alignment in the throat and the case body and neck will have minimal influence. Let's not forget that the base of the case is supported by the bolt face or the extractor to a certain degree as well; this is yet another influence on alignment. As you can see, there are several points from base to bullet that can have an effect. My procedure is to minimize the influence of those that I can control, namely the case body and neck, and let the alignment be dictated by the fit of the bullet in the throat and to some extent by the bolt's support of the base. Barring a seriously out of square case head, I don't think the bolt can have a negative effect on alignment, only a slightly positive effect from minimizing "case droop" in the chamber. Given that a resized case will usually have a maximum of 0.001" diametrical clearance at the web, this isn't much of a factor anyway.

In conclusion, I believe that allowing the bullet to find a relatively stress-free alignment in the throat by full length sizing (including the neck) and turning necks to enhance concentricity gives the bullet the best probability of a well-aligned start into the rifling."

The Rifleman's Journal
Germán A. Salazar


And the late Jim Hull of the Sierra ballistic test lab and competitive shooter said the following.
"The cartridge should fit the chamber like a rat turd in a violin case."
 
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At what range is accuracy affected with greater than your standard? Very interested since I am wrestling with this now.
I think it's difficult to correlate with absolute certainty the effect of run-out on precision, accuracy, or ES, particularly considering differences in rifle chamber, bullet design, seating depth, etc. To your question, while range is certainly a function, I think more about the the angular dispersion(MOA) which more often then not correlates at longer ranges with a well designed load(stabile bullet and low ES). My standard of run-out was established quite a few years ago when I was heavily involved in 200/300 yard Egg Shoot Competition. This is essentially a bench-rest game, requiring the rifle to consistently shoot relatively long, time limited strings(10-20+ shots) into <.5MOA, the minuimum requirement to hit an egg at 300 yards(Much harder the it sounds!). During this rather intense period of shooting through thousands of rounds at actual eggs, sighter groups,and practice it appeared that the uniformity and reduction of fliers was related to the degree of run out with my loads. Initially, the bulk of my shooting was with a 308 hand loaded with 168 or 175 Sierra SMK's. I stumbled upon this when comparing my loads which were near identical in velocity, and POI to the Factory Gold Medal Match. While my actual groups size, on average, were smaller then the factory loads by about .25MOA, the factory ammo was typically more symmetrical in shape with fewer fliers. In an attempt to figure out the difference to my loads, I measured several different lots of the factory Match ammo, the average runout rarely exceeded .003", with most in the .001-.002"range. Mine were running .003-.005". When I "finally" reduced my run-out to <.003" and I found my groups more symmetrical with fewer fliers, and improved ES.....Most importantly, I improved my Egg Shoot scores! Thus, my .002" stantard, which I have since then, simply applied to all my precision loads. Coming back to the question asking, "What range is accuracy effected?" For those Egg Shoots it was 300 yards. In the case of my LR hunting, it's hitting the particular animals vitals out to 1000+ yards. I think a low degree of run-out(<.003") can only improve the chances of performance consistency, and the confidence that your average group(or shot) will be within your target, at whatever the calcuated range(WEZ)....IMO.
 
I once read an article on run-out that stated that for big game hunting .005 was the max acceptable run-out, for varmint hunting and long range big game .003 was max and for target/benchrest shooting you always strive for zero. Sounds reasonable to me.
 
From my experience a low case runout does not necessarily mean that you will end up with a low or the same bullet runout .....which is the relavant factor.

I agree. I was answering the original poster's question.

I check cartridge runout about a 1/16" from the tip. That runout varies from about .001" clear up to .009". I drilled a neck size hole in a piece of aluminum as thick as the neck. I use this to straighten the tips to under .002".
 
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