Who Makes Nosler Brass ?

[Old teacher]

I have more arguments on the WW vs RP debate, but everyone is probably tired of it, so I will shut up on the topic.

New brass topic: I bought a Sako 550 chambered for the Lazzeroni 7.82 Warbird. I bought it barely used over the internet, but the guy had all the right answers about how he broke in the barrel, etc., and the pictures looked good, so I overpaid and bought it. I loaded three batches of five cartridges in Lazzeroni brass using three different powders, but 150 grain accubonds in all fifteen. The first group was 1.1 inches; the second was exactly one inch; the third made one ragged hole. Needless to say, I was pretty happy with that, especially since it was the first time I shot it.

I know John Lazzeroni has some pretty firm opinions on most topics, but he and I e-mailed back and forth a number of times because I was ordering one of his rifles in the same caliber as the Sako. When he found out I was a retired teacher, I thought he was going to come up here and "take care" of me personally. I don't think he likes teachers.

But he is a very good source of information and buried under the bluster is a nice guy, and he will willing help you out with a problem. I asked him about all the criticism about his brass, and after he calmed down, he gave me a method of making brass last a long time, even in hot cartridges. I related a couple of his ideas in my first post.

Do any of you have enough experience with Lazzeroni brass to form a knowledgeable opinion, and since John gave me permission to post his method of making brass last, is anyone interested in hearing that, if you haven't already?

 

[robert6715]

Iam listening.

Rob

 

[Old teacher]

Sorry, but I am back. I wanted to ask Idaho CDT a question on his fire-forming loads. You said that you use a light load, just as I used to do. Do you have a case gauging tool like the RCBS Case Master? If you do, the next time you fireform some cases, use your usual load and use a few heavy loads. Then use your case gauger to check for both head, case body and case neck concentricity, case neck thickness, and case length. Measure carefully and compare the light against the heavy in those categories. The results may be interesting...or not.

 

[Old teacher]

OK, I am back. One person was interested, and for a teacher, one is good enough. Following is John Lazzeroni's method of making cases last. Remember two things, this is a direct quote from an e-mail he sent to me, and remember I am just the messenger here. (Although, the urge to toss in my own comments will be too overwhelming to ignore.)

"1. Set the re-size die up so that it resizes the case JUST enough to get the case back in the chamber, but no more.
2. Trim and chamfer the necks slightly after each reloading.
3. LEAVE the primer pockets alone!! and just polish the cases with RCBS chemical liquid tumblers, rinse and dry in your home oven, on a foil sheet at 115-130 degrees for 3-4 hours prior to loading again.
4. Anneal just the necks with a low power hand torch after about every 4 firings.

Start out with 500 cases and around 400 of them will still be useable after 20 firings with these methods."

This all sounds pretty sensible, but 20? I wholly agree with buying one of the new chemical cleaners, which I have done. They not only polish the outside, but the inside of the case (I do not know how important that is. Perhaps someone could enlighten me.)But they also clean the primer pockets sparkling new, which eliminates reaming primer pockets, and I know that prolongs case life.

Thanks for listening. I am going to go away now and leave you all alone. I can hear the sighs of relief!

 

[IdahoCTD]

Sorry, but I am back. I wanted to ask Idaho CDT a question on his fire-forming loads. You said that you use a light load, just as I used to do. Do you have a case gauging tool like the RCBS Case Master? If you do, the next time you fireform some cases, use your usual load and use a few heavy loads. Then use your case gauger to check for both head, case body and case neck concentricity, case neck thickness, and case length. Measure carefully and compare the light against the heavy in those categories. The results may be interesting...or not.

I ran out of .300 H&H and .375 H&H Winchester brass a few years ago so I don't have to fire form to those extremes anymore. I would if it was still available in Winchester but it's pretty much non existent now. I never worried about the cases until after the second firing. A lot of times I'd weight sort before firing and believe it or not they would come out pretty good after the second firing.

Did you try annealing the Winchester stuff before firing in the Gibbs? Winchester brass tends to be harder and is probably why you experienced cracking.

 

[Old teacher]

Hi Idaho. Yes, I did try annealing a few cases after the first ones cracked, but it made no difference. I agree that WW cases are harder than most, but hard also means brittle, which is why I was getting the splitting. I personally do not favor WW cases, but I am sure that in a standard caliber where the cases do not have to go through any stressful reshaping other than resizing, that they will last about as long as most others. I do agree with Lazzeroni that annealing now and then is a good idea for any brass. It relieves the stress that builds up in the neck end of the case and therefore makes them last longer. I think you would agree that the most common case failure is the neck splitting, and annealing would reduce that dramatically. I live in the Pacific Northwest, and we have a gun shop up here named Kesselrings. It was begun by a master gunsmith who immigrated to the U.S. from, I believe, Germany, and after he passed away, his son took it over, and now the son's sons run the business. They are beyond competent and everyone in the area depends on them for answers. I went to see them when I was having trouble with the WW cases splitting and was told to switch to RP's, which I did. I never had an RP case split.
But back to the case forming process. Using a light load as you say you do does not fully create the case that you want. You admitted that you did not get sharp shoulders until the second firing. If you did not get sharp shoulders in the forming shot, you did not get a sharp case anywhere. A light load does not create enough pressure to force the walls of the case fully against all of the new chamber. A case that is not fully formed will not be as accurate when you take the second shot, although the difference may be imperceptible. That is why I asked you if you had a case gauging tool. I think you would find in a case formed with a light load that the case would not be round base to neck. You would probably have flat spots not perceptible to your eyes, but indicated by the tool.

I am also an avid advocate of neck sizing only. It is just a simple matter of physics. The less stress you put on anything metal, the less likely it is to break. Take, for example, a piece of copper wire. You bend it back and forth enough times, it breaks in half. Leave it alone, and it remains in one piece forever. Full length sizing is the same as bending the copper wire back and forth, although on a much, much smaller scale. Full length sizing puts a tremendous amount of stress on a case. Try resizing a case without lubing it and you will get the idea of how much stress it takes to resize a case. (Be sure you have a tool for extracting a stuck case from a die before you do this.) A case that is extracted from a chamber after is has been fired, is simply neck sized and reloaded, will fit the same chamber from which it came absolutely perfectly when it is rechambered in the same gun…emphasis on "the same gun." It will obviously be a more accurate cartridge if none of the energy of the burning powder is used up trying to make the case fit the chamber if the case was full length resized. Both P.O. Ackley and Rocky Gibbs discussed this sort of stuff in various things they wrote while creating all of their wildcats.

So that is that, and I bet you regret asking the question. I have feeling that no one is going to talk to me because it means reading a book afterwards. Sorry about that. Take care, and as usual, if it works for you, keep doing it.

 

[IdahoCTD]

I never pushed the first fire form because of the amount it had to stretch. Considerably more than even a Gibbs. Believe it or not a lot of time the second firings shot as accurate as any load through the guns. Even though it would take 2 firings to get it to size the brass the brass would still last twice as long as Remington.

 

[Old teacher]

Well, as I said...if it works for you, keep doing it. Good for you!

 

[Old teacher]

I have re-read all the posts on the WW vs RP discusssion, and the various rankings of all the well-known brands of brass. One thing that none of us mentioned is the infinite number of variables that affect gun, rifle, cartridge, and shooter performance that will make different brass perform differently for all of us. Humidity will affect all of the above. Loading techniques will affect all of the above. Temperature has a dramatic affect on all of the above, especially when choosing powders. I love Reloder powders, but they are incredibly sensitive to temperature. My usual load in my 300 Win mag is 80 grains of Re22 with a 150 grain bullet. Fired at 50-60 degrees Farenheit at sea level, this load performs superbly with pressures at about 60,000. (the pressure numbers are not mine, but were taken from an article, I believe, in "Shooting Times" magazine. Fire the same load in the middle of summer at 90 degrees, and pressures go to 90,000! Needless to say, when I tried this, I could not get the bolt open, and I stopped shooting that rifle for the day. I also switched to H1000 for summer shooting. Elevation has dramatic effects on performances, which is why John Lazzeroni has taken so much flak by publishing all of his data from tests run at 3000 feet elevation. So I think many of our differences are caused by many of the outside variables that may or may not be under our control. I was shooting my .257 STW at a 200 yard target at sea level in a semi-foggy day once. Every time the bullet hit the 125yd mark, there was a perfectly round explosion of water vapor about the size of a basketball that immediately disappeared. It was a fascinating phenomena to watch, and it cost me a whole box of shells because everybody there wanted to see it over and over like they were watching a fireworks show. But this is an example of something that would not happen on a dry, warm day. Did it have any affect on any of the above mentioned variables? Who knows. But it does indicate that all of the variables I listed will most likely affect rifles, cases, and specific loads and create many of the differences we debate here. If any readers live in Alaska, I would love to hear how long their cases last in the severe weather conditions they have to endure. I would also love to hear an explanation of the machinations that produced my ball shaped explosions from the .257 every time the bullet hit the exact same spot.

 

[LazzInc]

Old Teacher ,,,,,

John Lazzeroni publishes his data at 3,000 ft elevation because I estimated that this is the average elevation for hunters killing animals ,,,, and i wanted to make our ballistics charts as reliable as possible for our customers, who by and large are NOT target shooters ,,,,,

Same with the scope mounting 2" above boreline, as this is pretty much the standard scope mounting distance, using the big Schmidt & Bender, Swarovski, & Ziess 30mm/34mm tubed scopes, that most of our customers use for hunting ,,,,

anyone that has half a brain can run the calculations and tell that Lazzeroni ammunition is not faster than most everything else because our ballistic chart tables are calculated at 3,000 ft elevation, instead of sea-level ,,, (((if you run the comparisons, the variations in trajectory are almost insignificant))),,,,,

Lazzeroni ammunition is faster than most everything else because Lazzeroni cases have the powder capacity, and chamber/throat/barrel twist designs to allow us to maximize the overall performance ,,,, simple as that ,,,,,

Those that pooh-pooh the Lazzeroni calibers based upon how our ballistics charts are calculated, either don't know what they are talking about, or have some type of axe to grind ,,,,

That is the way I see it ,,,,,

 

[T3-OleMan]

..................................................I would also love to hear an explanation of the machinations that produced my ball shaped explosions from the .257 every time the bullet hit the exact same spot.

Could it be the spot where your bullet fell off the MACH 1 wagon????
I would not think that it would be that slow...but never thought about salt sea air being that thick???

I would like to know also. Seen F 18s go through a kind of Bball entering the MACH 1 range but not coming out of that class of speed. COOL let us know.

 

[Old teacher]

John: My comments on your testing at 3000 feet was not in any way meant to be a criticism. I was merely pointing out that the variables that affect rifle and rifle cartridges are endless. Your reason for testing at that level is perfectly valid. You are attempting to give your customers information that will be accurate at the level where most hunting takes place and most animals are killed.

When will my rifle be ready????

 

[LazzInc]

Old teacher ,,,

no offense taken, BTW please give me the order number on the rifle I am building for you and I will check the progress ,,,,

I am getting old and fat after all these years and my memory gets worse ! LOL ,,,,,

 

[Old teacher]

Re: scopes

Good day to all. I need some advice on scopes. I am currently having a Lazzeroni Warbird built and I need to choose a scope for it. After paying for this gun and a CZ 550 I just bought, my toy buying account is running a little low, so I really need to stay under $1000 on the scope as much as I would love to put a Swarovski or Schmidt and Bender (which Mr. Lazzeroni recommends) on it, but I have to stay in the real (and married) world.

I used to be high on Leupold, and I have six of their variables, but I have lost some of my enthusiasm for them because the variables get very dim when you dial them up to greater magnification. I have three Meoptas, and they are very bright and very solid, but they have a design flaw in their mildots. The dots are so large that at 200 yards, a dot completely covers a deer. I have two of the Bushnell 6500 series, and I like them very much, but they are both on small caliber riflles and I do not know if they will hold up under the recoil of the Warbird.

Does anyone know anything about the Vortex scopes? I have seen them at sportsman shows, and they appear quite impressive. They are very bright, even at the high power variables; they are clean looking and seem to be solidly built. The adjustment knobs click solidly into place when you turn them. Just looking at and through them, I was impressed. Plus, they have just what I want right at $950. They also have a lifetime no-questions-asked guarantee. But I have no experience with them and I do not know anyone who has one. Does anyone out there have any experience with a Vortex on a heavy rifle, or, does anyone out there have an alternative suggestion. I want at least a 4-16 variable, 30mm tube, side parallax adjustment, 50mm objective, mildots or a reticle that accomplishes the same thing or more, and the reticle on the first focal plane if possible, but that is not critical and would not be a deal breaker. I have been through the Midway catalogue several times, and the choices seem endless, so some first hand help would be very much appreciated.

Many thanks in advance to anyone who responds