What’s up with Hornady’s reloading podcast?

[LRNut]

It's worth noting that "inconclusive" means his test couldn't definitively say they do or don't affect precision. It's practically impossible to prove a negative, so if they don't work there will likely never be a conclusive result. Proving a negative requires showing the positive is not true in any case. As long as there's one combination of rifle, ammo, and conditions that hasn't been tested folks like Litz aren't going to conclusively say tuners don't work.

For the layman, "no one has shown they work when rigorously tested" is pretty close to "they don't work".

Wow, excellent reply!

 

[ResearchinStuff]

I do it all the time. Consistency is the answe

Pics?

 

[FireFlyFishing]

It's easier to sell reloading components and equipments when a customer is lead to believe it's as easy as they say it is. If you think the educational podcasts by hornady are anything but another sales pitch, brand building tool, etc. you are very mistaken.

This.

I listen to what they have to say at times to see if I pull any nuggets out of their info. At times I do pick up something here or there. I've also learned about all their new cartridges. Do I own one? Nope.

I am interested in the 6 ARC though as it's finally a round that makes the AR-15 pack more punch and relevant without having to go to a AR-10. I'm watching to see how that goes before I dip my toes in the pool.

I'm also interested in the 22 CM which is an impressive varmint round that they didn't develop but were nice enough to submit to SAAMI. They talk nothing of this cartridge.

 

[QuietTexan]

I am interested in the 6 ARC though as it's finally a round that makes the AR-15 pack more punch and relevant without having to go to a AR-10.

It's a nice round, a good increase over the 6x45 (6mm-223 Rem) that lets me use my stockpile of 6mm bullets. I have a 6.5 Grendel for the same reason (stockpile) and have avoided 6.8 SPC because I don't have random bullets to use up. I think it has as much staying power as any of the AR variants that have popped up in the last 15 years or so, I wouldn't hesitate to recommend for anyone to get a barrel, brass and dies. It's not better in a quantifiable way than many other existing options, but IMO having more options is always better than fewer options.

Back on topic -

Yes Hornady has a marketing machine. 100% agree on that, and they're dang good. But so does Berger, AB, Remington, Winchester, Ruger, Barnes, Hodgdon, and every other company in the industry.

I work in finance, and I look at this podcast thing through my professional lens of I'm constantly being hounded to "engage". Meaning I go to panels and listen to people who do the same job I do talk about our jobs, or even worse I'm ON the panel talking to a group that assuming I'm average (not a stretch right?) then half are better than me at the job they're listening to me talking about These Hornady guys and their guests are probably being pushed to do these things as part of their job, so they end up talking to a group very similar to themselves, and one of the easiest ways to engage people is to be controversial - meaning make them unhappy, unconvinced, or uncomfortable.

They're winning every second we sit here and talk about them! Rent free in our collective cerebral cortexes.

 

[FireFlyFishing]

I have an example of the Hornady marketing machine that has duped the consumer. Create a new cartridge (.375 Ruger) pump it up as the conquerer of the ever so popular .375 H&H. Come out with new cartridges based on that .375 Ruger case and bone all the folks that bought into the .375 Ruger. No brass to be found. Their bottom line wins over the consumer here.

This makes me extremely hesitant to buy into Hornady's new cartridge line up although they can be enticing at times from the massive amount of marketing they employ. I know, I know…I'm going to hear several that say the CMs and PRCs are here to stay. Perhaps. Only time will tell. From the model I've seen from Hornady, they'll create more cartridges to out do the last they invented/produced. This is now their business model…as it has worked for them! If I really wanted to jump into the 6.5 mm world, why would I pick the 6.5 CM over the 6.5 PRC? Already, they have made a cartridge that is far better on the performance side than the holier than thou 6.5CM.

Tying this back into the OP's thread…
I find it interesting that the tighter cartridge tolerances Hornady was able to approve through SAAMI is a good thing. Supposedly cartridges that shoot factory ammo much better and easier to reload and load develop. If that's the case, why do I need 30 shot groups?!?!?!

So for me, I've been sitting back watching and listening to the Hornady spectacle. I don't hate their company or even their take on innovation. I have found I still fill my freezers with my older .30 cals and .375 H&H, not using Hornady bullets. And I don't shoot 30 round groups. According to Hornady…I must be a statistical outlier.

 

[Taylorbok]

@FireFlyFishing I'm not a huge proponent of Hornady but most everything you said there is wacked out.

1) The 300 PRC may have momentarily caused a shortage of 375 Ruger brass but in the long it drove the production of more high end brass. (ADG, Lapua etc.)

2) 6.5 CM vs PRC, velocity isn't everything, shooting a lighter recoiling cartridge will benefit precision in almost every instance just depends on your requirements. For most people (this site included) a 6.5 CM will do everything they need.

3) Hornady didn't tighten any tolerance's, tolerance are the same as any other cartridge. What they did do is modernize and make the cases more efficient, along with longer spec'd freebore and tighter twist rates for the newer long high BC bullets.

4)You are right there's nothing really wrong with the older cartridges and some of them can be easily made to hang with the newer stuff with a properly set up freebore and faster twist barrel.

 

[QuietTexan]

No brass to be found.

Big Green has abandoned many more cases than Big Red IMO. It's not a new thing in the industry to have orphaned cartridges - SAUMs are a prime example.

What they did do is modernize and make the cases more efficient, along with longer spec'd freebore and tighter twist rates for the newer long high BC bullets.

I think that's really the part that upsets people the most. No these CMs and PRCs are not anything unique or magical. But there comes a time where there's no way to keep even minor changes (much less advancements) backwards-compatible. Why not get a new SAAMI approval? The movement towards seating bullets longer has put classic designs like 300 WM and 7 RM at a disadvantage because of maintaining compatibility with their 50+ year old approved specs..... for factory produced rifles and ammunition.

4)You are right there's nothing really wrong with the older cartridges and some of them can be easily made to hang with the newer stuff with a properly set up freebore and faster twist barrel.

Yes sir, the point in italics above is my concurrence with what you said here. 100% agree that handloaders and reamer makers can make classic designs run just as good if not better as newer designs. Once we departs from SAAMI-compatibility it's a fully open race, and some of the oldest cases yield nothing to newer designs.

But the majority of shooters won't ever get a non-SAAMI anything, and even if they stumble into re-barreling or having a rifle built only a small number will actually get in deep enough to care about the nuances of chamber design. We're the oddballs in this world, and not Big Red's target consumer

I do think it's a bit odd that Big Red gets such a bad rap for their marketing working on the rubes, but marketing still does work on us nut jobs... companies like Hammer, Sherman Wildcats, Alpha Brass, etc. They rake sure it in off of us. Main difference is we justify their marketing working on us by showing our personal results instead of restating claimed results from the companies like the rubes do... usually.

 

[buzby]

I didn't realize trying to innovate or improve in the factory ammo category was so polarizing, or akin to selling snake oil. I guess we should all be happy shooting 30-30s and 375 HH with flat base round nose bullets. PRS would be interesting at 50-200yds!

 

[cajun]

Maybe we should be talking about how much Remington screwed the pooch over the years. Lets see you come out with the 350 rem mag and put it in a 6lb rifle. The 6.5 rem mag limited to 2.8". The 260 etc.

 

[Heavyiron]

Sending out ammo blowing primers just seems unforgivable to me. Ammo blowing primers is exceeding 70,000 psi. No excuses for that from production or quality control. Trying to make a cartridge faster than others shows desperation within the company, from marketing and research and development. Risking the lives of their customers just to prove a few second faster is not only futile but irresponsible. What would have happened if several customers had been killed or maimed. Where the heck was their pressure gun? Who approved this hot ammo to get loaded on trucks. Who the hell is watching the store. So many departments that can blame e
each other but so far, no one has come forward. All their cartridges are rehashes of other cartridges that have existed for years. Getting saami approval just for minor gains is not cutting edge technology but tickles the ears of the gullible but innocent. Watch what you want to but the real pioneers are people that go to the range every chance they get and learn their own conclusions. Learning is painful, slow and expensive, but it is the only way to success. Who ever reads a reloading manual anymore, instructions are there for SAFE AND ACCURATE AMMO. I buy their bullets but not their cutting edge ammo. As a famous circus man once wrote there is a sucker born every minute. YOU CAN'T BUY EXPERIENCE ON PODCASTS.

 

[Taylorbok]

Who ever reads a reloading manual anymore, instructions are there for SAFE AND ACCURATE AMMO…….. YOU CAN'T BUY EXPERIENCE ON PODCASTS.

Oops you crossed yourself up there. Is it important and valuable to educate yourself before venturing down an unknown path? or is only experience valuable?

Podcasts can be a good source of knowledge just like reading.

 

[Heavyiron]

Sorry, no dice. If you want to watch their podcasts go ahead. But their credibility is in question.

 

[Heavyiron]

If you commit purgery in court. All your testimony is thrown out as unusable. If you tell one lie, professionally it is assumed that you will lie again. Joyce hornady was not that type of person. But his ancestors are.

 

[buzby]

Getting saami approval just for minor gains is not cutting edge technology

That's where we are with metallic cartridge design. There's not likely to be anything revolutionary.

Long loaded, heavy for caliber, high BC factory loaded ammo, that performs well in almost any factory rifle, and available on the shelf darn near everywhere, is about as big of a jump in technology as we've had in a long time.
Yes, handloaders/wildcatters have been doing this for a bit longer with tweaking sammi specs. That's pretty much the whole point of hand loading. "Tweaking", right? Anyone can now buy loaded ammo that was only available to handloaders not long ago. The VAST number of shooters don't want to reload. They want to buy a box of ammo and go.

There is a whole lot of people buying Hornady ammo/bullets right now that are satisfied. Go to your local range. You will find someone shooting 6.5cm you'll have a hard time finding someone who's not happy with it. I'd bet you'll find plenty of people shooting Precision Hunter, or Precision Match, that aren't complaining. But today I learned that they are all 100% gullible. What a privilege to be so enlightened.