Using Quick Load for Optimum Barrel Timing and OCW Node Matches

Veteran

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 10, 2021
Messages
5,859
Location
Michigan
Once you have your QL set up and trued to actual velocities for a range of charge weights at the bullet seating depth you have determined is
optimum, you adjust your Ba Burn rate until you history match your actual velocities. You need to be using fire formed brass too.

Then you will want to look at the milli seconds of bullet exit time from your barrel to try to pick an optimum bullet exit time or velocity node that gives you good groups or will give you good groups with some fine tuning from there.

Here's the process to get to a starting point for doing OCW method fine tuning, or to run some Audette or Satterlee curves or all of the above.
I view this method using QL as a way to get to a good starting point for fine tuning.

First read over this paper by Chris Long to understand his theory and approach. It is Attached below as Chris Long OBT Theory

Then use this spread sheet or the table to enter your specific bbl. length from chamber to end of rifling to get the OBT nodes Long developed
from harmonics work. You will see up to 7 nodes per barrel length you can choose from depending on the pressures and velocities you are able to safely achieve in your specific rifle system at the specific charge weight and bullet weight you are using. I have rarely ever seen any way I could use a node 7 for any loads I shoot. Its way too fast for my set up. (If you are running a can, it may affect your "effective barrel length")

You can either use the attached table in pdf or the excel spreadsheet that is available with your barrel length input into it.

The excel spreadsheet is available for download here:


Here is an example output file I ran for my .338 LM to look at what charge weight I can most nearly match up to Long's OBT node for my 25.25 inch
bbl. Go to the end of the document to see the muzzle exit bbl time compared to Node 6 for a 25.25 inch bbl. from Long's work. It is attached below.
This table is the one output in QL. It is the 8th button at top from left and looks like a minature table or tablet.

Now, these tables and the spreadsheet are likely only valid for carbon steel barrels, or possibly stainless barrels. They probably do not work for
Carbon Fiber because they are based on pressure and sound wave travel times in carbon steel.

This as I have said is just to get a good starting point on load development. In my mind, one still needs to fine tune from here using one's preferred method. But it gets you close in theory. Perhaps for a .223 with very low amounts of harmonics it is very accurate. For big caliber magnums with
different barrel tapers, it may just be another tool to get you into the ball park.
 

Attachments

  • Chris Long OBT Paper.pdf
    794.1 KB · Views: 658
  • OBT Table PDF.pdf
    59 KB · Views: 503
  • QL Bullet exit time example.pdf
    74.1 KB · Views: 427
Ive used this method for several years and it does work but the details must be perfect. GRT has a built in OBT calculator. I've found that there is quite a difference in QL pressure predictions and it could be the powder I have on hand is out of date with current powder models however GRT predictions are much closer to reality than QL IME.
 
Ive used this method for several years and it does work but the details must be perfect. GRT has a built in OBT calculator. I've found that there is quite a difference in QL pressure predictions and it could be the powder I have on hand is out of date with current powder models however GRT predictions are much closer to reality than QL IME.

What's GRT?
 
GRT - Gordon's reloading tool.

I have been running barrel times for a while. People still poopoo it. I put the QL, barrel times and what Bryan Litz told me about finding a safe max and back off 1.5 to 2 grains into one model. I look for the barrel time about 1.5 grains back, typically the 4.5 node on calculator. Works every time.
 

Please note that Chris Long's work on optimum barrel timing is closely related and analogous to Harral's work on barrel harmonics and barrel timing. Both are focused on the optimum barrel time of exit (velocity) where the node is quiet and the barrel is consistently pointing in the same place over a small range of velocities.

Haral comes at it looking at the left side of the MPC curve in the work below. But, it is all the same concept.


Harmonics are related to bullet timing and velocity (therefore pressure too).
 
Crazy, last night I started working on this exact method for my 223 rem. I am just making preliminary notes but I find this interesting. I will not start at these speeds but looks good on paper so far.
 

Attachments

  • 20220217_063757.jpg
    20220217_063757.jpg
    3 MB · Views: 159
  • Screenshot_20220217-063820_Gallery.jpg
    Screenshot_20220217-063820_Gallery.jpg
    163 KB · Views: 197
I came across this thread from a couple years ago.
 
I came across this thread from a couple years ago.
In that thread, the OP of that thread posits the following.

I have come to the conclusion that the OBT nodes are independent of barrel length and a function of muzzle velocity only.
For example, 20", 22", and 24" all have separate ideal recommended optimum barrel times, but they all occur at the same muzzle velocity for a given "node". Anyone else come to the same conclusion based on your data analysis?


I believe its not possible if you are following the theory as Chris Long has derived it. Below is attached a table in pdf of Barrel times in milli seconds that match each of his 7 nodes for different barrel lengths. If you have a 16, 18, 20, 22, 24 inch barrel, there is a different time listed for any given node and they are all different from one another and unique. Each one of these barrel times represents a different velocity, because the velocity decreases from node 1 to node 7 or increases as you go from node 7 towards node 1. I have never been able to achieve a node 5 with my 26 inch bbl .338 LM because to get to node 5, I'd have to shoot a dangerous way over pressured load. So, I focus on matching node 6 for my barrel. I can achieve node 7 because its a slower load too. The velocities all have to be different at each of these nodes because the barrel times are different, and barrel time is just a proxy for velocity. You have to reduce charge weight to slow the bullet down if you are going from say node 6 to node 7.
So that also implies that lower charge weights, longer time of bullet exit is at a lower velocity.

Now, a load that was tuned for a 22 or 24 inch bbl may still shoot fine in a 16, 18, or 20 inch bbl, because the shorter the bbl, the
less harmonics comes into play, especially with high velocity loads. The bullet can be gone before the harmonics whip the bbl around in a shorter bbl. rifle. Thats why we don't even worry about harmonics in a pistol for example.

Also if you look at Haral's work here at this link below and go down to his optimum barrel length experiment you will see he finds the optimum bbl length to get rid of harmonics for the most part is 17 inches. Even at 22 inches, the curve isn't going up that much worse.

Go Alllllll the way to the bottom of this link, and you will find the work on optimum bbl. length.

Barrel Length vs Accuracy & Muzzle Velocity

 

Attachments

  • OBT Table PDF.pdf
    59 KB · Views: 226
GRT calculates this with the click of a button and IME, it off by very much. For my rifles usually withing a few tenths of a grain. Adjusting the powder model for each rifle is keey to accuracy in addition to measuring every detail.
 
GRT calculates this with the click of a button and IME, it off by very much. For my rifles usually withing a few tenths of a grain. Adjusting the powder model for each rifle is keey to accuracy in addition to measuring every detail.
Yes, QL calculates bullet exit time too. Thats what I use.
 
It's hard for me to believe it could work.
For one, 'optimum barrel time' seems a misnomer. You're really theoretically identifying 'terrible barrel times'. Right?
That is, the points where vibrations hit the muzzle. A condition where bore dimensions change, right at the muzzle, by a vibration wave.
But actual optimum barrel time remains unknown, as there are more than one type & source of vibrations and barrel movements, all interfering with each other, with some providing MV compensation.

Then optimum powder charge, or powder tune, is separate and different from barrel tune.
Neither is predicted with ANYTHING.
 
It's hard for me to believe it could work.
For one, 'optimum barrel time' seems a misnomer. You're really theoretically identifying 'terrible barrel times'. Right?
That is, the points where vibrations hit the muzzle. A condition where bore dimensions change, right at the muzzle, by a vibration wave.
But actual optimum barrel time remains unknown, as there are more than one type & source of vibrations and barrel movements, all interfering with each other, with some providing MV compensation.

Then optimum powder charge, or powder tune, is separate and different from barrel tune.
Neither is predicted with ANYTHING.
Mike, believe whatever you like. I've used QL and GRT extensively for quite a while and I know what theyve done for me and how close to a node it gets me. It saves me time and money. It works great for me. I'll be working on my 9.3 this week using it. Have a great day
 
Top