Upgrading Dies...Which ones?

[J300UM]

The other day I borrowed a friends concentricity guage and checked some of my old 264wm loads. Runout averaged .006-.008. At the time the rifle was all stock and while I did shoot some nice groups with it, it was inconsistant. I just got the rifle back from the smith with a new tube, blueprinted action, new stock, etc... I want to be able to reach 1k consistantly with this rifle and I don't think the old RCBS dies are going to do me any favors. Would I benefit from going with a standard Redding 2 die set or would I be better off paying the extra for the type s deis? If I go with the type s deis will I need to start turning the necks as well?

BTW, I checked some my other calibers loaded with RCBS, Hornady, Lee and runout was pretty much .003 or less so I'm convinced the runout with the 264 loads is mostly from the dies.

 

[Outlaw6.0]

I'm really starting to like the Redding Type S FL dies i'm using for my 6.5WSM. Your chamber will dictate whether or not you need to neck turn. If your setup w/o a tight neck you can run Type S w/o any problems. Just choose your bushing accordingly. You can do a "clean up" turn on your necks to increase the consistency, that is fairly optional. Some brass is GTG, some really stinks! A tubing mic or similar tool will give a decent idea of how consistent your necks are.

 

[Trickymissfit]

The other day I borrowed a friends concentricity guage and checked some of my old 264wm loads. Runout averaged .006-.008. At the time the rifle was all stock and while I did shoot some nice groups with it, it was inconsistant. I just got the rifle back from the smith with a new tube, blueprinted action, new stock, etc... I want to be able to reach 1k consistantly with this rifle and I don't think the old RCBS dies are going to do me any favors. Would I benefit from going with a standard Redding 2 die set or would I be better off paying the extra for the type s deis? If I go with the type s deis will I need to start turning the necks as well?

BTW, I checked some my other calibers loaded with RCBS, Hornady, Lee and runout was pretty much .003 or less so I'm convinced the runout with the 264 loads is mostly from the dies.

there are a few varibles in your quest for better concentricity.

* just because the other rounds come out better dosn't mean your setup is all bad. Look closely at how the bullet contacts the seater stem.

* take a once fired case and check the concentricty before resizing it. Then check it after resizing the case, but without a bullet in it. Check the O.D. of the case in two or three places along with the neck. You may have another problem that is giving you error. Measure the neck runout in the I.D. and O.D. and compair the high points (location) and low points.

* Assuming the case is good and the seater stem looks good, then I'd hunt up a Forster or Redding seater. They are pretty much the same, but one is 33% more money

Also you might want to hold the sized cases up against a strong light, and check them with a strait edge to see if the cases are actually strait, or have a banana shape. Look for a bulge just ahead of the band on the case O.D. Four or five thousandths here will often drive you nuts. The best sizing die for that case is from Innovative Technologies, and the best seater is a Forster. But even the I.T. sizer is ment to be used with a regular full length die most of the time.
gary

 

[J300UM]

Thanks guys. I should have spun a case on the guage through each step of the process to try and narrow down the issue. I'm gonna order a guage next week. I did measure a neck of a case ran through the sizer without the expander and found that is squeezes the neck (I.D.) down .010 under bullet diameter and I measured the expander at .264 (right at bullet diameter). That seems like an excessive amount of work on that neck. I always lube the inside of the necks and in this particular case I still nearly lift my bench off the floor when the case is pulled over the expander!

 

[moombaskier]

Forster sizer and seating dies work for me and I don't feel you need to spend the extra $$ for the "Micrometer" seating die.
I have found that most of the runout from an originally straight case fired from your rifle comes from pulling the expander ball up through the neck of the case at the end of the "up stroke" of your press. The Forster die pulls the expander ball up through the case neck close to the very beginning of the "up stroke" of the press while case body and neck is still supported by the die. I have also found that when sizing cases if I almost complete a full stroke cycle, say till the expander ball just clears the neck, stop, rotate the case 90*, then lower the press handle again and complete the cycle, I get rewarded with no additional case runout. I also use mica powder to lube the inside of the case necks.
It also helps to take the "high side" off the case necks if there is much of a neck thickness difference.
I either use a neck bushing die or size the expander ball to give me .002"-.0025" neck tension.
On bullet seating I have had excellent results by rotating the case by 90* several times while seating the bullet a little deeper each rotation. It's also very important to make sure you have the correct seating stem for the bullet you are using!
Some folks may think all these extra steps are unnecessary and a big waste of time, but it works for me and my other handloading buddies for ammunition that consistantly has zero or very close to zero runout.

 

[7stw]

The other day I borrowed a friends concentricity guage and checked some of my old 264wm loads. Runout averaged .006-.008. At the time the rifle was all stock and while I did shoot some nice groups with it, it was inconsistant. I just got the rifle back from the smith with a new tube, blueprinted action, new stock, etc... I want to be able to reach 1k consistantly with this rifle and I don't think the old RCBS dies are going to do me any favors. Would I benefit from going with a standard Redding 2 die set or would I be better off paying the extra for the type s deis? If I go with the type s deis will I need to start turning the necks as well?

BTW, I checked some my other calibers loaded with RCBS, Hornady, Lee and runout was pretty much .003 or less so I'm convinced the runout with the 264 loads is mostly from the dies.

One thing that I have noticed and corrected over the years of reloading, and particularly in your situation, is that a concentricity issue,often originates at the resizing stage. It all begins at the set up off the die, and how and where you lube. Case hardening also comes into play here. To properly set up the die, you must first loosen all the lock collars, and set screws. Back off the collar nut on the main body. Run a case up into the die, and just before you reach the to, with pressure still on the ram, turn down the lock nut and secure it into place. Now the die body is SQUARE to the press and your brass. Now for the neck . Loosen the lock nuts on the recalling stem, and with that same piece of brass, run it down, until the expander ball is in the case neck. Now lock it up. Now, in theory, your die is square with the press, and the expander ball, is concentric to center bore of the die. If the expander is not centered, and if the inside of the neck is not sufficiently lubes, you can, and will"bend" the neck, when the expander ball goes through it.
I was having concentricity issues a few years ago. Ones that I could measure right after resizing. I reset ALL my dies, and instantly went to no or very little case tuning. Another thing that does come into play, is the condition of your press. That was the other thing that I ended up changing, due to ram play, and pin wear. I know it was a long story, but sometimes, and more often than not, what you have is just fine, it need to be fine tuned. Hope that some of these things might be of help.
AIM SMALL, MISS SMALL, lightbulb gun) 7 STW

 

[Bart B]

I wore out a .264 Win Mag barrel that shot the best match bullets available about 3/5 MOA at 600 and 4/5 MOA at 1000 using and old press that had some slop in it's ram fit to the frame. And sometimes it made "banana" cases. The chamber was a standard SAAMI spec one. Used a standard RCBS full length sizing die just screwed into the press for the right shoulder set back of about 3 thousandths. It's neck was lapped out to about 2 to 3 thousandths under a loaded round's neck diameter. A second body die was used to size just the body at the ridge right in front of the belt back down to new case diameters (same as what Larry Willis' collet die does these days). That ridge is norious for degrading accuracy. Never turned a case neck nor any other case prep process. Bullets were seated with the standard RCBS seating die and max bullet runout was between 3 and 4 thousandths. Such dies and processes produced ammo that didn't shoot any better than new cases.

Nowadays, the Redding or RCBS bushing full length sizing dies are popular for best accuracy with shoudler fired rifles in competition. And the Willis collet die does wonders for belted cases. Sierra Bullets test lab for accuracy uses Redding full bushing dies for cases they're made for; standard dies for the others. And if a sized case neck ain't straight with the case, no bullet seater will change it's angle any significant amount; bullets align with case necks so they had better be pretty straight.

 

[boomtube]

"BTW, I checked some my other calibers loaded with RCBS, Hornady, Lee and runout was pretty much .003 or less so I'm convinced the runout with the 264 loads is mostly from the dies."

Well, the cases nad necks come into play too. And, while individual dies matter, brands don't. It appears what you proven with your other die checks is that there is as much variation between dies of the same maker as between makers.

What many of us consider the best die "set" is a body die, a Lee Collet Neck die and a Forster BR or Redding Comp. seater die. Neck bushing are great...when used on custom-cut tight necked chambers.

 

[Trickymissfit]

Forster sizer and seating dies work for me and I don't feel you need to spend the extra $$ for the "Micrometer" seating die.
I have found that most of the runout from an originally straight case fired from your rifle comes from pulling the expander ball up through the neck of the case at the end of the "up stroke" of your press. The Forster die pulls the expander ball up through the case neck close to the very beginning of the "up stroke" of the press while case body and neck is still supported by the die. I have also found that when sizing cases if I almost complete a full stroke cycle, say till the expander ball just clears the neck, stop, rotate the case 90*, then lower the press handle again and complete the cycle, I get rewarded with no additional case runout. I also use mica powder to lube the inside of the case necks.
It also helps to take the "high side" off the case necks if there is much of a neck thickness difference.
I either use a neck bushing die or size the expander ball to give me .002"-.0025" neck tension.
On bullet seating I have had excellent results by rotating the case by 90* several times while seating the bullet a little deeper each rotation. It's also very important to make sure you have the correct seating stem for the bullet you are using!
Some folks may think all these extra steps are unnecessary and a big waste of time, but it works for me and my other handloading buddies for ammunition that consistantly has zero or very close to zero runout.

Forster sells different sized expanders for the stem. (I'm sure the others do as well) I use nothing but Imperial Die wax inside and out with conventional dies. But on small stuff I only lube the ball about once every four or five cases. Something like a 30-06 will get lubed every third round.
gary

 

[tulku]

First choice would be Wilson straight line type Dies and an Arbor Press like the Bench Resters use , but most likely you won't be able to utilize the benefits unless you have a BR level Rifle . Next choice would be Redding Bushing Die and Bonanza / Forster or Redding Competition Seater .

 

[Bart B]

First choice would be Wilson straight line type Dies and an Arbor Press like the Bench Resters use , but most likely you won't be able to utilize the benefits unless you have a BR level Rifle .

Note that Sierra Bullets uses Redding full bushing and seating dies for their accuracy tests on bullets. Their best match bullets shoot at BR levels (sub 1/4 MOA at short ranges) with such dies. Others have used other makes of full length sizing dies and presses and also equalled what BR rifles do.

Then there's those who've used brand new virgin brass cases and shot groups at 1000 yards equalling what the LR BR folks do. A recent record was set with brand new cases.

 

[J300UM]

Some folks may think all these extra steps are unnecessary and a big waste of time, but it works for me and my other handloading buddies for ammunition that consistantly has zero or very close to zero runout.

IMO extra steps aren't unnecessary at all. Extra steps minimize variables. In my limited experience, minimizing variables increases consistancy and accuracy. It's the extra steps (like those that you mentioned and that others on this thread have mentioned as well) that I put to use as I try to increase the accuracy of my loads every season!

 

[WRG]

BTW, I checked some my other calibers loaded with RCBS, Hornady, Lee and runout was pretty much .003 or less so I'm convinced the runout with the 264 loads is mostly from the dies.

I see no mention of the type of brass you are using. Your runout problem could very well be the brass and not so much your die. Have you measured neck thickness? Try turning some necks and see if the runout improves. Even the best dies made won't correct your runout if the neck walls are not consistant!

The combo I use is Nosler Custom brass and Lee collet die's. Necks are usually always consistant using the Nosler brass right out of the box.

Maybe I'm just the lucky one!

 

[J300UM]

I was using Win brass. When I put the load together, Nosler brass wasn't yet available and I hadn't considered necking down Norma 7 Rem Mag brass (which I am considering now). I'm not sure if I would benefit from Norma/Nosler brass over well prepped win brass or not. I use lapua brass where applicable. Otherwise, I just use what's available.