Ultra light load

[Sasman]

Before anyone reads this and feels the need to reply , I'm not an expert in reloading or shooting , i just like to shoot and learn from trial and error , reading and asking questions . Please don't bash me
Where i go and target shoot ( old sand pit ) there's another older guy who shows up .
Over the years we sorta become friends and meet there on the weekends . He likes to try and shoot heavy caliber magnums but his shoulders are starting to bother him so i told him i would reload a few for him . This weekend i loaded my 338 Lapua ( im almost embarrassed to print this lol ) with 250 g Lapua scennars and 65g of IMR 7828 .
I went to the usual spot made sure my 300 Win Mag and 308 were good at 100 yards then set up the 338 . I used some old factory loads first just to get the feel of it . Then , i loaded a lite loaded round , needless to say i had to make adjustments on the scope . All good , went back to the 225 yard mark . 300 was on fire . I put 5 rounds down on the target , it came in at .929 " wow , my best group of any rifle bar none . I then proceeded with the 'ultra lite loads " in the Lapua . Yikes , i managed a 5 shot group that came in at .896 !!!
I guess my question in all of this , do you really need really high velocity to stabilize heavy a heavy bullet ? I understand that shooting further distances will cause a huge drop but wow , i was impressed at how accurate this load was .

 

[HARPERC]

I then proceeded with the 'ultra lite loads " in the Lapua . Yikes , i managed a 5 shot group that came in at .896 !!!
I guess my question in all of this , do you really need really high velocity to stabilize heavy a heavy bullet ?

Simply put no.

I've had fire forming loads in wildcats outshoot "working" loads fairly often.

 

[Sasman]

Simply put no.

I've had fire forming loads in wildcats outshoot "working" loads fairly often.

Just for another trial for this weekend coming , i reloaded 10 rounds using 76 g of 4831 and another 10 rounds using 78 g of 4831 . See where that gets me as far as grouping goes .

 

[AZShooter]

I think it is great that you are helping an older friend with some reduced loads. I looked up the minimum load for the 338 Lapua with a 250 grain bullet and IMR 7828. Your load is below their suggested minimum!!!!!

. Hodgdon's and Nosler's load data both say 83 grains is minimum. I want to warn you that underloading what is suggested from printed load data is considered unsafe.

I would give Nosler or Hodgdon a call and see if they can suggest a powder and powder charge weight for reduced velocity/recoil.

==============

As to your question on slow bullets being accurate yes they can be very accurate. I shoot the .338 300 gr Berger at 2454 fps using a 338 RCM and it is very accurate.

Same for a 215 Berger in a 308 Win @ 2500 fps and a 358 Win with 180s @ 1990 fps

 

[Dean2]

For reduced loads use either Trail Boss, per info in red below, do not compress loads, or call Hodgdon and get them to give you reduced load data using 4895 and see if they recommend it. Many of these over bore cartridges do not react well to under loading. The 7 RUM is notorious for being dangerous when loaded below minimum with regular powders.

From the Hodgdon site. The bolded bits are links to documents, the ones in Italics and bolded are PDFs.

https://www.hodgdonreloading.com/low-recoil-loads

Low Recoil Loads
One great advantage of handloading is adjusting the ballistics to suite a particular need. Wish you could enjoy that .375 H&H at the range for 50 shots instead of 2 or 3 before the recoil takes its toll? Or how about some extended practice on a plate rack with your "grizzly bear stopper" revolver? The Hodgdon Reloading Data Center has an option to do just this.
Unfortunately, creating a low recoil load is not as simple as just dropping the powder charge. For most cartridge / powder combinations, getting the powder charge low will cause ignition and ballistic problems. Low velocity, low recoil loading is possible, but as always, only with the correct reload data.
Hodgdon has three separate tabs under the DATA menu of the website's main page to help in low recoil loading.

• The first is titled "H4895 Reduced Rifle Loads". H4895 has proven to be a versatile powder that performs superbly at lower powder charges. Loads in this listing are reduced from full power but still offer mid-range performance.
• If the goal is minimum recoil, the answer is Hodgdon Trail Boss powder. The second tab under the website DATA menu is titled "Trail Boss Reduced Loads". Trail Boss can be applied to any cartridge you may want to reload. Trail Boss reloads are very mild and easy to shoot. Designed for Cowboy Action Shooting, Trail Boss has proven to be a great way to get more practice with your big bore hunting rifle.
• Not to leave shotgun shooters out, the third tab under the website's DATA menu is titled "Reduced Recoil Shotgun Loads". These loads give enough velocity to break a thrown clay target but take a big bite out of the recoil. Ideal for training, particularly for women and youth shooters, where even a light standard target load can wallop the shoulder hard.

Hodgdon Powder Company
IMR® TRAIL BOSS® REDUCED LOADS FOR RIFLE AND PISTOL
As noted in the powder description section, Trail Boss was designed primarily for reduced loads using lead bullets in pistol cartridges. However, Trail Boss offers superb versatility in rifle cartridges producing reduced loads using lead or jacketed bullets. These reduced loads make firing such cartridges as the 300 Winchester Magnum or even the 458 Winchester Magnum pure fun!
Where data is already shown for specific cartridges, never exceed listed maximums. Many original black powder pistol cartridges have capacities where a full case to the base of the intended bullet, creates charges that exceed maximum pressures allowed by SAAMI. In all these cartridges, we show data that stays within the SAAMI maximum pressure guidelines.
Listed below we show a few examples of rifle loads throughout the Reloading Data Center, but the fun doesn't stop there. If you don't see Trail Boss data for your favorite cartridge we have a formula for developing loads for all cartridges and it's simple to follow. This formula may be used in both rifle and pistol applications:
1) Find where the base of the bullet to be loaded is located in the case and make a mark on the outside of the case at this location. Then fill the case to that mark with Trail Boss, pour into the scale pan and weigh. This is your maximum load. Pressures will be below the maximum allowed for this cartridge and perfectly safe to use!
2) Take 70% of this powder charge weight (multiply the maximum load from step 1 by .7), and that is your starting load.
3) Start with this beginning load and work up to your maximum charge, all the while searching for the most accurate reduced load. Once found, the fun begins!

 

[Sasman]

For reduced loads use either Trail Boss, per info in red below, do not compress loads, or call Hodgdon and get them to give you reduced load data using 4895 and see if they recommend it. Many of these over bore cartridges do not react well to under loading. The 7 RUM is notorious for being dangerous when loaded below minimum with regular powders.

From the Hodgdon site. The bolded bits are links to documents, the ones in Italics and bolded are PDFs.

https://www.hodgdonreloading.com/low-recoil-loads

Low Recoil Loads
One great advantage of handloading is adjusting the ballistics to suite a particular need. Wish you could enjoy that .375 H&H at the range for 50 shots instead of 2 or 3 before the recoil takes its toll? Or how about some extended practice on a plate rack with your "grizzly bear stopper" revolver? The Hodgdon Reloading Data Center has an option to do just this.
Unfortunately, creating a low recoil load is not as simple as just dropping the powder charge. For most cartridge / powder combinations, getting the powder charge low will cause ignition and ballistic problems. Low velocity, low recoil loading is possible, but as always, only with the correct reload data.
Hodgdon has three separate tabs under the DATA menu of the website's main page to help in low recoil loading.

• The first is titled "H4895 Reduced Rifle Loads". H4895 has proven to be a versatile powder that performs superbly at lower powder charges. Loads in this listing are reduced from full power but still offer mid-range performance.
• If the goal is minimum recoil, the answer is Hodgdon Trail Boss powder. The second tab under the website DATA menu is titled "Trail Boss Reduced Loads". Trail Boss can be applied to any cartridge you may want to reload. Trail Boss reloads are very mild and easy to shoot. Designed for Cowboy Action Shooting, Trail Boss has proven to be a great way to get more practice with your big bore hunting rifle.
• Not to leave shotgun shooters out, the third tab under the website's DATA menu is titled "Reduced Recoil Shotgun Loads". These loads give enough velocity to break a thrown clay target but take a big bite out of the recoil. Ideal for training, particularly for women and youth shooters, where even a light standard target load can wallop the shoulder hard.

Hodgdon Powder Company
IMR® TRAIL BOSS® REDUCED LOADS FOR RIFLE AND PISTOL
As noted in the powder description section, Trail Boss was designed primarily for reduced loads using lead bullets in pistol cartridges. However, Trail Boss offers superb versatility in rifle cartridges producing reduced loads using lead or jacketed bullets. These reduced loads make firing such cartridges as the 300 Winchester Magnum or even the 458 Winchester Magnum pure fun!
Where data is already shown for specific cartridges, never exceed listed maximums. Many original black powder pistol cartridges have capacities where a full case to the base of the intended bullet, creates charges that exceed maximum pressures allowed by SAAMI. In all these cartridges, we show data that stays within the SAAMI maximum pressure guidelines.
Listed below we show a few examples of rifle loads throughout the Reloading Data Center, but the fun doesn't stop there. If you don't see Trail Boss data for your favorite cartridge we have a formula for developing loads for all cartridges and it's simple to follow. This formula may be used in both rifle and pistol applications:
1) Find where the base of the bullet to be loaded is located in the case and make a mark on the outside of the case at this location. Then fill the case to that mark with Trail Boss, pour into the scale pan and weigh. This is your maximum load. Pressures will be below the maximum allowed for this cartridge and perfectly safe to use!
2) Take 70% of this powder charge weight (multiply the maximum load from step 1 by .7), and that is your starting load.
3) Start with this beginning load and work up to your maximum charge, all the while searching for the most accurate reduced load. Once found, the fun begins!

Thats awesome . Really do appreciate this information .

 

[Sasman]

I think it is great that you are helping an older friend with some reduced loads. I looked up the minimum load for the 338 Lapua with a 250 grain bullet and IMR 7828. Your load is below their suggested minimum!!!!!

. Hodgdon's and Nosler's load data both say 83 grains is minimum. I want to warn you that underloading what is suggested from printed load data is considered unsafe.

I would give Nosler or Hodgdon a call and see if they can suggest a powder and powder charge weight for reduced velocity/recoil.

==============

As to your question on slow bullets being accurate yes they can be very accurate. I shoot the .338 300 gr Berger at 2454 fps using a 338 RCM and it is very accurate.

Same for a 215 Berger in a 308 Win @ 2500 fps and a 358 Win with 180s @ 1990 fps

Warning is noted , thanks for the heads up .

 

[Dean2]

Info on H4895 since the link in the document above isn't working right.
HODGDON® H4895® REDUCED RIFLE LOADS
For Youth Hunting, Informal Target, and Plinking
__________________________________________________________________________
Hodgdon Powder Company has found that H4895 can be loaded to reduced levels. H4895
was chosen because it is the slowest burning propellant that ignites uniformly in reduced
charges. To create reduced loads, the 60% formula is recommended.
Find the H4895 load in the Reloading Data Center for your caliber and bullet.
Take the maximum H4895 charge listed and multiply by 60% (.6). The load may
be adjusted up from there to achieve the desired velocity and accuracy.
This works only where H4895 is listed. DO NOT use in a cartridge where H4895
is not shown.
Example: 30-06 cartridge with 125 gr. Sierra SP bullet. Max load shown in the Reloading
Data Center with H4895 is 53.7 grains. 53.7 X .6 = 32.2 grains. The shooter begins
with this load, and may work up from there to obtain the desired velocity and
accuracy for his reduced load.
Call Hodgdon Powder Company if additional information is needed, 913-362-9455.

 

[Sasman]

For reduced loads use either Trail Boss, per info in red below, do not compress loads, or call Hodgdon and get them to give you reduced load data using 4895 and see if they recommend it. Many of these over bore cartridges do not react well to under loading. The 7 RUM is notorious for being dangerous when loaded below minimum with regular powders.

From the Hodgdon site. The bolded bits are links to documents, the ones in Italics and bolded are PDFs.

https://www.hodgdonreloading.com/low-recoil-loads

Low Recoil Loads
One great advantage of handloading is adjusting the ballistics to suite a particular need. Wish you could enjoy that .375 H&H at the range for 50 shots instead of 2 or 3 before the recoil takes its toll? Or how about some extended practice on a plate rack with your "grizzly bear stopper" revolver? The Hodgdon Reloading Data Center has an option to do just this.
Unfortunately, creating a low recoil load is not as simple as just dropping the powder charge. For most cartridge / powder combinations, getting the powder charge low will cause ignition and ballistic problems. Low velocity, low recoil loading is possible, but as always, only with the correct reload data.
Hodgdon has three separate tabs under the DATA menu of the website's main page to help in low recoil loading.

• The first is titled "H4895 Reduced Rifle Loads". H4895 has proven to be a versatile powder that performs superbly at lower powder charges. Loads in this listing are reduced from full power but still offer mid-range performance.
• If the goal is minimum recoil, the answer is Hodgdon Trail Boss powder. The second tab under the website DATA menu is titled "Trail Boss Reduced Loads". Trail Boss can be applied to any cartridge you may want to reload. Trail Boss reloads are very mild and easy to shoot. Designed for Cowboy Action Shooting, Trail Boss has proven to be a great way to get more practice with your big bore hunting rifle.
• Not to leave shotgun shooters out, the third tab under the website's DATA menu is titled "Reduced Recoil Shotgun Loads". These loads give enough velocity to break a thrown clay target but take a big bite out of the recoil. Ideal for training, particularly for women and youth shooters, where even a light standard target load can wallop the shoulder hard.

Hodgdon Powder Company
IMR® TRAIL BOSS® REDUCED LOADS FOR RIFLE AND PISTOL
As noted in the powder description section, Trail Boss was designed primarily for reduced loads using lead bullets in pistol cartridges. However, Trail Boss offers superb versatility in rifle cartridges producing reduced loads using lead or jacketed bullets. These reduced loads make firing such cartridges as the 300 Winchester Magnum or even the 458 Winchester Magnum pure fun!
Where data is already shown for specific cartridges, never exceed listed maximums. Many original black powder pistol cartridges have capacities where a full case to the base of the intended bullet, creates charges that exceed maximum pressures allowed by SAAMI. In all these cartridges, we show data that stays within the SAAMI maximum pressure guidelines.
Listed below we show a few examples of rifle loads throughout the Reloading Data Center, but the fun doesn't stop there. If you don't see Trail Boss data for your favorite cartridge we have a formula for developing loads for all cartridges and it's simple to follow. This formula may be used in both rifle and pistol applications:
1) Find where the base of the bullet to be loaded is located in the case and make a mark on the outside of the case at this location. Then fill the case to that mark with Trail Boss, pour into the scale pan and weigh. This is your maximum load. Pressures will be below the maximum allowed for this cartridge and perfectly safe to use!
2) Take 70% of this powder charge weight (multiply the maximum load from step 1 by .7), and that is your starting load.
3) Start with this beginning load and work up to your maximum charge, all the while searching for the most accurate reduced load. Once found, the fun begins!

So after the duly noted warnings i went back to the drawing board and loaded some rounds with higher charge of powder . Using 78g of the IMR 4831 and 250 g Lapua Scenar bullets , i seem to have hit a pretty good combo for my rifle . I managed one 5 shot group of .791 and another which blew me and my older partner away . It came in at .648 . These are both 5 round groups shot at a distance of 225 yards .

 

[Dean2]

Glad it worked out for you.

 

[MagnumManiac]

My only advice on reducing charges is this. ALWAYS pick a powder at the lowest end of the suggested load data, do NOT reduce the starting loads. If you get a hang fire, STOP shooting the ammo. Over a Pressure Trace, you can see a spike just after ignition, it's not a proper looking graph and makes me wonder what could happen if the charge suddenly detonated.
4831 is probably a good powder to pick in the Lapua case.

Cheers.