Therohetical Hunting Scenario!

[liltank]

Okay, so I'm bored and I should be in the woods right now shooting deer, BUT my car is at the garage and my ride is taking his dear to the butchers. So out of curiosity I start plunking around some ideas in my loosely gathered melon thinking about the perfect brush gun. But obviously it is not as simple as that.

This comes from spending a day in PA woods that is grossly thick with under brush and thinking to myself, Man if I hit a twig with this 7Mag, my 154 SP is going somewhere other than the intended target. Not to mention that I am grossly over powered for what will only be about a 10 ft to 75yrd shot max for a Whitetail. SOOOOO here is what I was thinking and basing it off of a wildcat or better projectile perspective based on an 08 casing.

Starting would be a mountain style stock, probably synthetic of some type. Pistol grip if I could work it out. Sights would be a military style AR peep in the rear and a fiber optic front sight for a bright sight to find. Or would one want a red dot reaction style sight knowing you should probably carry a hand full of batteries not knowing if you have time to flip it on? Barring dies, they can always be made.

Now for the fun part, CALIBER!!!! I have been waggling around in my brain the thought of the following:

a. 270-08
b. 8mm-08
c. 338-08
d. 358 Winchester
e. 375-08
f. 308 with 180 or 220 rnd. nose
or forget all the above even though it would be fun to play with and go with the old reliable 45-70? I should also add what bullet should be used with your selected caliber?

What say you? This should be fun.

Tank

 

[3fingervic]

Tank, my vote is for a slug gun. Probably a 12ga. I have an H&R Ultra Slugger that will knock a deer off his feet at 100 yards with Lightfield Hybrids.

 

[MontanaRifleman]

Tank,

According to Mr Newton, an object in motion tends to stay in motion and it tends to want to maintain it's path. It takes some amount of force to change the momentum and direction of this object and the greater the momentum of the object the more difficult it will be to change the objects momentum and path. Monentum is directly proportional to velocity and mass. Meaning, that your 7mm RM will be a better brush gun than the -08 variants unless you can produce enough velocity on a given weight bullet to exceed the velocity-mass of the 154 SP. Then of course, stability of the bullet also plays a big factor.

The 154 with am MV of 3100 has a momentum of 68 lb ft/s. The 270-08 is definitely not a player. the 358 Win shooting a 225 bullet with an MV 2500 (on the upper end) has a momentum of 80 lb ft/s so it will resist deflection from brush a little better than the 7RM. Anything larger on the list than the 358 will probably do even better. Without knowing bullet weight and velocity, my guess would be the 338-08 will be close to the 7RM and the 8mm would be "iffy".

My uncle was/is the beat PA deer hunter I knew. He used a .308, which IMHO is probably the all around best cartridge for "average" PA deer hunting.

Hope you get out in the woods soon and get your buck gun)

Mark

 

[RockyMtnMT]

I don't think there is any bullet/rifle combo that will maintain poa after impacting brush. Perhaps a hand grenade launcher will work. Other wise I would say a 30-30 with peep sight would work well. Must have no brush in the flight path though.

Steve

 

[liltank]

Tank,

According to Mr Newton, an object in motion tends to stay in motion and it tends to want to maintain it's path. It takes some amount of force to change the momentum and direction of this object and the greater the momentum of the object the more difficult it will be to change the objects momentum and path. Monentum is directly proportional to velocity and mass. Meaning, that your 7mm RM will be a better brush gun than the -08 variants unless you can produce enough velocity on a given weight bullet to exceed the velocity-mass of the 154 SP. Then of course, stability of the bullet also plays a big factor.

The 154 with am MV of 3100 has a momentum of 68 lb ft/s. The 270-08 is definitely not a player. the 358 Win shooting a 225 bullet with an MV 2500 (on the upper end) has a momentum of 80 lb ft/s so it will resist deflection from brush a little better than the 7RM. Anything larger on the list than the 358 will probably do even better. Without knowing bullet weight and velocity, my guess would be the 338-08 will be close to the 7RM and the 8mm would be "iffy".

My uncle was/is the beat PA deer hunter I knew. He used a .308, which IMHO is probably the all around best cartridge for "average" PA deer hunting.

Hope you get out in the woods soon and get your buck gun)

Mark

Very interesting. Thank you and keep them coming. Is the 338-08 the 338 Federal?

Tank

 

[MontanaRifleman]

....keep them coming.

OK

The 338-08 is the Feceral. I had thought it was off the .06 case case but after looking it up it's off the .08 case. And that being said, a 210 bullet out of a 338 Fed moving at 2600 fps will generate 78 lb ft/s of momentum, so a good choice.

I think probably the biggest factors in choosing a brush cartridge are bullet construction and stability. I would avoid HPs and poly tipped bullets and go with a protected SP like a Swift A-Frame. A hard cast 12 g slug might be a good choice at close range if it was well stabilized.

EDIT: Having said that the 308 is IMO the best all around rifle in PA for "average" deer hunting, I would choose 300 WSM and if I thought I was hunting brushy areas, I would probably go with a 200 gr A-Frame. At 2900 fps it would have a little more momentum than the 338 or 358. Now if we step up to a 338 WSM or 358 WSM, those would be some good brush busters....

 

[MontanaRifleman]

I don't think there is any bullet/rifle combo that will maintain poa after impacting brush. Perhaps a hand grenade launcher will work. Other wise I would say a 30-30 with peep sight would work well. Must have no brush in the flight path though.

Steve

I guess it all depends on how thick the brush is, how close the target is and how big the kill zone is. I have never been one to shoot through brush but might consider it if the situation was right.

 

[bigngreen]

Hard to beat a Marlin or Winchester leaver action with open sites in a 30-30 or 45-70. I have never though a bolt action is much of a brush gun.

 

[MontanaRifleman]

Hard to beat a Marlin or Winchester leaver action with open sites in a 30-30 or 45-70. I have never though a bolt action is much of a brush gun.

A fair point, but.... I think the OAL of the rfile is more of a factor than the action and a short action bolt can be worked fairly effectively. Also, when hunting deer in brush, you are almost certainly not going to get a second shot. My uncle hunted with a semi-auto. He was by far the most successful PA deer hunter I know, in both year to year consistancy and quality/size of buck.

 

[liltank]

My uncle hunted with a semi-auto. He was by far the most successful PA deer hunter I know, in both year to year consistancy and quality/size of buck.

Let's hope the game commission isn't reading this. Semi auto centerfires are illegal to hunt with in PA.

Tank

 

[MontanaRifleman]

Let's hope the game commission isn't reading this. Semi auto centerfires are illegal to hunt with in PA.

Tank

Hmmmm.. you're right...maybe his shotgun was a semi auto? It's been years since I've seen the rifle and I just dont remember it being a bolt and it definitely wasn't a lever. Will have to ask next time I talk with him.

 

[little black 243]

Re: Theoretical Hunting Scenario!

Ive hunted cedar swamps in Michigan since I started hunting, that's some thick stuff. 12 ga slug has my vote and I agree it wasn't the best of ideas and I wouldn't recommend it, but I have "pushed" a slug through some brush at 50-80 yards without any problems on a couple of occasions. I think the heavier slower projectiles will maintain course a little better when encountering brush. But out of your choices listed I like the 308. my go to close range MI rifle is a 300 sav which is very close to a 308. Just my 2 cents

 

[longrifle]

I'm a big fan of large, bowling ball type heavy bullets and short, fast handling guns in brush situations. Bunches of years in the Florida swamps and palmettos with big pigs. A scoped Contender/Encore pistol in 45-70 with a 1.25x4 power would be the first choice. You're probably not gonna get a second shot. Picks up those openings in the brush well. And if you DO happen to hit a close (to the target!) limb you'll probably be ok. If I had to go long gun a Marlin Lever Action in a big caliber like that would do well, same reasons. But I've taken a lot of big porkers with a good long barrelled 44Mag.



Pick a spot...a LITTLE spot...squeeze....

 

[tmmcampbell]

I once read an article in Outdoor life about brush guns. They tested several by shooting them through a box with some brush in it. None of the tested rifles fared very well. I don't remember all the calibers' used but I do remember they used 30-06, 30-30, 7mm mag, 12 GA, 375 H&H, and 45-70. The best cartridge was the 375 H&H. As I remember it placed 2 of three test shots on target. Target was about 50 yd. Most didn't hit the target at all. That being said I use a rem 7400 in 35 whelen. I hunt the thick brush in western Oregon and often have successful follow up shots. I also have a low power Bushnell elite so rain is not a big deal and I can try to shoot through the holes and not hit the brush. At least on the 1st shot.gun)gun)gun)gun)gun)gun)