TAC 15/15i Basic Unpublished Information

Hi Konrad,
One more note I wanted to respond to your question about the F.O.C. of the shafts. Sorted or unsorted the F.O.C. doesn't change significantly enough to amount to a difference.

The normal F.O.C. for these shafts when using the factory field points is about 7.547 percent. The calculation is as follows: Arrow Length=26.5", Shaft Midpoint: 13.25", Balance Point with 85 Grain Field point = 2'' F.O.C., so 2/26.5 as a percentage should be 7.547.

Please check my math but I'm fairly comfortable on the formula.

I was hoping somebody else would provide a response, since everybody should be somewhat aware of what F.O.C. they are shooting from their arrows. 7% - 15% should be Ok, so I'm not to concerned about the F.O.C. at this point, but it was worth asking the question as a sanitary check.

Regards,

Jon
 
jon.henry755 said:
That's a deviation of .10 grains which is about 3/4 of a gram.
Click to expand...
Mine were not 0.10 grains, but 10.0 grains (+/-5 grains).
I am seeing shafts weighing from 335 grains to 345 grains.

I am guessing PSE has greatly tightened their arrow makers specs based on the numbers you are seeing and your arrows being younger than mine. :rolleyes:
 
Yeah, I think Jon got lucky on his shaft weights. I have had an average of 5-6 grains difference in 6 shafts. Sometimes I get a batch that is within a grain of each other, but not too often.
 
I've been shooting PSE's Radial X Weave Pro shafts for years they are plus or minus 1 grain per dozen. They have been true to their claim.

Carbon arrow shafts are cut from a long length of carbon tube lets say a 300 spine. After the shafts are cut they are sorted by straightness and grain weight.
X Weave Pro / Bow Madness / Stealth hunter

It surprises me that they don't do a better job of matching their crossbow arrows. Maybe in the future they will be graded like their other shafts.

One advantage of spending big bucks at your local PSE Pro shop is they will sort and match the Tac arrows from their stock.

Don't be afraid to ask they love your business.
 
Hello Folks,

Here is something else to throw into the mix. The following is the reply I received today from Alaskan Bowhunting, the purveyors of the GrizzlyStik arrows and shafts. They offer only two spines and all will note they will accept NO responsibility for anything regarding damage, injury or loss from experimentation with their shafts in this application.

I could not help myself. I just had to ask them.

Jon,

Getting actual measurements from the I.D. of the shafts is the only sure way to get accurate sizing for the Super Uni-Bushing. I was under the impression that the O.D. was 11/32's of an inch.



Konrad,

Thanks for your email. You're on the right track.

We do have crossbow shooters using our arrows, but they're adventurous and making them work by cutting from the nock end of our tapered GrizzlyStiks. Conventional bow shooters can't do that because our nocks will not fit if the arrows are cut on the nock end. Crossbow shooters, however, use different "nocks" on their bolts and so for them this works out. As you cut from our nock end, the stiffness goes up dramatically.

We have not done any testing in this area yet, but are considering it.

In the mean time, you'd have to simply buy a pack, try them, and see what happens.

Some CYA from ABS…
Of course we can't be responsible for anyone using our arrows in a manner that they were not designed for.

I hope that helps.

todd

From: Ginny Schlief [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Saturday, April 02, 2011 2:08 AM
To: todd smith
Subject: FW: SPAM-MED: shaft application

Can you respond to this guy?
------ Forwarded Message
Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2011 16:57:37 -0700
To: Ginny Schlief <[email protected]>
Subject: SPAM-MED: shaft application

Hello,

I have been involved in a discussion regarding ammunition quality issues and the TAC 15 crossbow. It occurred to me that your heavy, tapered carbon shafts may be suitable for this high performance application.

Has anyone approached you folks along these lines?

This device has a relatively long power stroke and 155 pound draw weight limbs with compound cams. Currently, the only available ammunition "approved" by PSE is their own TAC shafts and no one is happy with their over-all performance. The maximum broadhead weight that can be used with accuracy is only 85 grains. I suspect this is due to flimsy spining of the TAC shaft material (carbon composite).

Please, don't worry; I'm not as crazy as I sound. I'm just asking.

Thanks,
Konrad Lau
Sedro-Woolley, WA


------ End of Forwarded Message
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - AVG Antivrus e Software de Segurana - Proteo em tempo real contra vrus, spyware e sites maliciosos
Version: 8.5.449 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3548 - Release Date: 04/03/11 17:40:00
 
Hi Konrad,
The measurements that I received on the TAC15 shafts came from Dorge Huang and Super 91. Dorge had to create the Fire Nocks for these shafts, so he's probably one of the best possible sources for getting good measurements.

I don't have a micrometer to do accurate measurements so I'm relying on others for this one.

According to Dorge Huang / Super 91 the shaft I.D. on the nock end is somewhere between 0.295 to 0.300. The O.D. is 0.3495 to 0.350 Doing the conversion to fractions that would be in between 9/32 and 10/32 for the shaft I.D. and in between 11/32 and 12/32 for the shaft O.D.on the nock end.

If you look closely at how the Fire Nock is made, you will see 4 contact points on the shaft of the Fire Nock, that compress equally to adhere to these tolerance differences and still center into the shafts correctly.

11/32 is the shaft O.D. on the front insert end because the insert that PSE is using allows the insert to align equally to the shaft O.D. so there is no lip between the two. PSE bevels the inside of the top of their shaft to accept a special two piece insert, but I don't know exactly what size the actual I.D. of the shaft is at it's front end.

These shafts are definitely not your ordinary, every day, garden variety of arrow shafts!

Jon
 
OK,

If the O.D. is .350
Subtract the I.D. of .300
Leaves .050…divided by two gives a wall thickness of .025 inches.

11/32 equals 22/64th's of an inch
12/32 equals 24/64th's of an inch

This gives us a "size" of 2225 or 2425 using the alloy sizing reference and Easton does not manufacture an alloy shaft of .025 wall thickness.

This brings us to the carbon shaft sizes and I am too bleary eyed to wade through the datum tonight. It's off to beddy-bye now and then the "mines" tomorrow.

 
Hi Konrad,
Remember the famous words of the seven dwarfs; I Owe, I Owe, so it's off to work we go!!!!

We'll pick it up again tomorrow. Thanks again for your input, I just learned something new, again.

Jon
 
Grizzlystick is a well made shaft. One nice thing about them is you don't need a special machine to find the stiff side of the shaft. Just hold one end and roll the other on a hard surface.

For the Tac I think the Grizzlystick Safari may work. $ 129.00 per 6
 
We opened this thread as a vehicle for "Unpublished TAC15 / 15I Information" and my first input was exactly that. Over the past few weeks we've delivered a great deal of new and additional information on the TAC Arrows and correcting some precision long range shooting issues, but in doing so I haven't updated the original page with any of the extra data that we've captured.

If you are a TAC15 owner, I would suggest you might want to copy and printing this page, since it now contains a great deal of very valuable information that you won't likely easily find again. I actually created an MSWord document on my computer that I saved this data to. I'm going to paste it below, so anybody interested can save it to their own file or print a hard copy if they wish.

This doesn't mean we're done, it just means that this is the latest collection of information to date.

I believe we still have more to collect and document on many other areas of this crossbow and as long as you all continue to add your input to this thread we'll get quite a bit more over time.

PSE TAC15 / 15i Unpublished Owners Information
Hi Fellow TAC15 / 15i Owners.
I thought it might be nice for somebody to publish some of the general information about these crossbows and arrows that seems to have missed publication in all of the literature that gets put out by both the manufacturer and any of the forums that I've seen.

That said, I thought this might be a good starting point, so I'll attempt to provide some of the key missing information that I've collected and possibly the rest of you can fill in any additional details that I don't have listed in this thread.
Let's start with the TAC15 Arrows:
· The shaft size is 26.25" long.
· The nock end I.D. is: 0.295 to 0.300 (9/32 – 10/32) or a "size" of 2225 or 2425
· The nock end shaft O.D. is: 0.3495 to 0.350 (11/32 and 12/32)
· The shaft wall thickness is .025
· The arrows with 85 grain field Points is 7.547 per cent F.O.C.

· The arrows using a 100 grain broadhead is 11.3 per cent F.O.C.
· The standard field points are size 11/32, 85 grain points and are sold by either Saunders or Easton Archery. PSE Engineers recommend the use of this weight point to minimize flight problems. The more weight you add to the front end of your TAC shafts, the more you will magnify flight anomalies.
· The arrow spine is approx. 0.140, but the nocks are not indexed to the stiff side of the spine from the manufacture. This requires the use of a spine tester to align the spines to the same position for each arrow.
· TAC15 Arrow Vanes - PSE is using the 3" "Norway" Duravane 3-D series. The vane is a low profile (.43") vane and is highly rated and very stable. Available in several different colors available from any Duravane distributor.

To re-fletch or replace these vanes requires a Bitzenburger Fletching Jig with a special Nock Receiver to support a four fletch vane arrangement. The Vane spacing is 60 x 120 degrees. This is achieved via the special NOCK receiver that I mentioned. The NOCK Receiver can be ordered directly from Bitzenburger and the product number is: #3012. The price of the receiver with shipping is about $15. If you don't own a Bitzenburger Arrow Fletching Jig you can purchase one direct from the manufacturer with this receiver already installed as long as you request it that way when ordering.

You will need a very good glue to insure that your vanes will remain bonded to your carbon arrow shafts. This was an early problem that PSE was having, but I believe they have worked out most of these issues. I would strongly recommend the use of the best carbon shaft glue you can afford. I use AAE Maxbond Glue in a .7 oz. bottle. I've had no problems with vanes coming off any of my arrows. I place an extra drop of glue where my vanes meet my arrow shaft on the front of the vane and on the rear. This creates a smooth ramp between the vane and shaft and adds additional bonding at the lift points.

I've heard a number of people asking if anybody was using the new Aero II vanes in a two vane configuration? For those who wish to experiment with these alternate configurations there is a very well done forum article I could direct you to that was produced on this subject. The net of it was that after a lot of trial and error it was determined that for the TAC15's there were only two vane manufactures and configurations that seemed to achieve good, tight groups. One was the stock PSE Duravane configuration and the other was the two vane Aero II configuration. The Aero II produced a 1/2" better group at 50 yards than the 4 fletch Duravane when using 100 grain mechanical broadhead. Otherwise there has not been a vane or configuration that outperformed the manufactures configuration with 85 grain field points.

For the PSE TAC 15/15i crossbows, PSE provides instructions for set up and possibly paper tuning, but not much more. I've found that a bit more is required if you want to get the most accuracy out of you crossbow.

The stock trigger systems are considerably to heavy (over 8lbs.) and have way to much trigger creep for my liking. This will cause a certain degree of inaccuracy for most shooters. Either the "Timney" single stage trigger in a 3lb. or the Jewel two stage trigger in a 3lb. are both excellent choices. I personally use and recommend the Timney because it requires no gunsmithing and is very easy to install. It's crisp with no creep at all. Len Backus sells both, so it's your choice as to whether you like a two stage trigger or a single stage.

Squaring the crossbow to the stock is another undocumented concern. If all you did was assemble the crossbow as per the instructions, but never used a level to insure the bow was leveled and square to the stock then you could very likely have a problem that will affect your windage. The longer the shot, the more your windage will drift off center.

If you place your crossbow on a level surface and place a good level in the center of your stock, then adjust the height of the front or back until you are perfectly level. Now place your level across the metal frame of your bow and check to see if the limbs are registering perfectly level. If not, loosen the bolts that lock the bow to the Stock and place a thin shim of very fine moleskin or similar material and lock the bolts back in place until everything is tight and a perfect level is achieved. You must also insure that your scope is accurately leveled to the bow, so that both are at the exact same level to one another. Once this has been completed you can go paper tune your arrows to insure the string loop is centered in the correct position.

I would highly recommend you obtain and place a bubble level of some type on your crossbow to prevent shooting when the unit is canted. Any amount of canting will cause a deviation in windage. The longer the distance the greater the deviation. It's very difficult to gauge how far off level you are on different types of terrain or from up in a tree when hunting, so the bubble will help you avoid these problems. I know Len carries and sells these things, so he can talk to the problem or the fix. Most archers know this from shooting their compound bows.

If you are planning on achieving ultra accuracy at long distances over 60 yards, the HHA Optimizer is the ticket. It won't help unless you've completed the steps I've outlined above, but if you have, then you should be good out to 100 yards or more.

In another thread I will describe a way to use the HHA Optimizer so you can use different power settings on your variable power scope and not ruin your tape settings. This is probably not important unless you are planning on shooting distances over 60 yards.

When installing the HHA Optimizer on your crossbow, you will likely run into a problem with your crank handle being just a bit too short, so the crank will now hit the speed dial adjustment knob on the HHA Optimizer. The socket on the end of your PSE Crank Handle is a standard "Proto" 1/4" socket that is pressed onto the crank handle shaft. The simplest way to get around the problem is to go to Sears o your local hardware store and pick up a 1/4" socket extension. It will add about 1 1/4" of length to the crank. Better still would be if you could purchase a deep dish version of the same Proto 1/4" socket and simply replace the standard socket with a deep dish, since this would only add 3/4" to your crank handle.

I should caution that PSE does not agree with this solution, due to the fact that they've received two crossbows back that had bearing problems on the crank due to the extension adding to much torque to the handle and crank mechanism. As of two weeks ago, they are working on a new solution to the problem, but they won't say what it is or when they plan on having it available. The likelihood is they'll release a new version of the crank handle for sale on their website. My suggestion is to use the above solution and just be careful not to use excessive force to apply more torque than is necessary to load your crossbow, when cranking your bow back.

Please give me your feedback on weather this information was helpful and what other types of information you might want. I certainly don't have all of it, but collectively we might get a great deal more than we have now.
 
Hello all, I was told my name was mention a few times, so I come and take a look.

A few thing I want to point out.
1) Not all PSE TAc shaft are the same, some are tighter tolerance than others. So not all of them would need a Bull dog collar, but one can never be too safe
2) The more precise on can fletch vane/wings on the shaft, the better it is. The bitz even wit a zenith conversion is not good enough for long range hunting, especially with the tac at 400+fps, one nee to think +/- 1/4 of a degree, not 4-5 degree of variance
3) THe grizzly stick is a very durable shaft but the weight variance from shaft to shaft can be over 15 grains and the outside diameter is tapered which make the use of a biscuit rest lost its most appealing reason (an absolute same contact point when firing to minimize most nock travel issues)
4) ASAIK, the ID of the tac shaft should be 0.298" but most are close to 0.300" as they design it base on the 2119 OD" but the carbon need to be thicker at the back.
5) The shaft is indeed a multiple tubing shaft design. So the front and the back ID is not the same. The nock is indeed a 2 piece design so changing it is not going to be easy.
6) The longer shaft of a tac is critical, is there any other shaft out there that can do the job? No easily, I would say. I am in the process of making up some Aerobolt II at 26.25" and will let you know how the testing result goes. It is 250 spine at the back and about 50 spine in the front. Yes, all Aerobolt are multi-spine design. To learn more about Aerobolt, talk with Super 91, he had a few before.
7) The MOST important part of long range accurate shooting for any crossbow bolt is how concentric every component are. I am currently working on some 303 stainless ones for my Aerobolt 2 which is 0.0002" on center with concentric dual O-ring coupling points so the point and the insert can BOTH be within 0.0004" on center.
8) I am working with broad head manufacturers to see if the design can be added to their broadheads.

I have to agree that the approach I use is very extreme, but for those who want to shoot at high speed, and LONG distance even with wind, the approach MUST be precise and meticulous or the impact point will not be what you wanted at long distance and at high speed. That is the long and short of it.

I hope what I wrote help you to understand what is going on at Firenock LLC. The bottom line is that we make products that are very high end and only appeal to those who had the need and want to do the extreme but are willing to learn and pay for what can be done with today's bleeding edge technology. But isn't that what LONG range hunting is all about?

Dorge Huang,
Firenock LLC, Operating Manager
(815) 780-1695
[email protected]
 
Hi Dorge,
I'm sure I speak for all of our forum members when I extend a warm welcome to you. We're happy to have you join us and help provide as much information as you have.

We've been slowly collecting as much technical information about the PSE TAC15's and their arrows as we can. As you may be aware Super 91 and many others have provided us with a good deal of the information and testing verifications for that we've published in this forum.

Our goal is to collect and document as much detailed information as we can. This helps all owners share this information and hopefully improve the shooting capabilities and aid in the evaluation process for future product developments.

As a personnel response to the information you've supplied, I only have one point that I'm not sure I agree with. While I understand that the Bitzenburger Fletching Vise may not be dead on accurate in its ability to index (rotate arrow shafts) at precisely 60 degree spacing or 120 degree spacing, it does rotate the exact amount of spacing each time on the same jig. That spacing might be 55 degrees or 125 degrees when going from one side of the shaft to the other, but it is the exact same spacing each time a user rotates the nock indexing knob.

That would indicate that each arrow produced on these jigs would have exactly the same spacing between each vane placed on each shaft with this jig. In order to achieve the same performance from arrow to arrow, it's necessary to maintain the same exact alignment of the vanes, but it does not need to be exactly 60 degrees or exactly 120 degrees spacing. The 120 degree spacing is used to support maximum vane clearance from the cables and the 60 degrees is a spacing between each set of vanes on the two sides of the shaft, so I fail to understand why a deviation of 4 or 5 degrees would matter as long as every arrow produced had exactly the same 4 or 5 degree deviation?

Let's use a 5 degree deviation as an example. For conversation sake we could say that the separation on the Bitz. nock receiver was 125 degrees instead of a perfect 120 degrees. It would seem that as long as every arrow produced started the next vane on the opposite side in the 125 degree position, it would mean that every arrow produced would have this same pacing and therefore fly exactly the same as long as the spines were aligned the same and all other shaft matching characteristics were pre-matched or am I missing something?

Regards,


Jon
 
Warning! This thread is more than 4 years ago old.
It's likely that no further discussion is required, in which case we recommend starting a new thread. If however you feel your response is required you can still do so.

Similar threads

Len Backus
PSE TAC 15/15i bolts
Replies
6
Views
6K
OkieBowie
O
J
tac 15i
Replies
3
Views
1K
jon.henry755
J
S
TAC 15i questions
Replies
6
Views
2K
OkieBowie
O
K
pse tac 15i
Replies
1
Views
2K
HarryE
H
D
Tac 15i Quiet
Replies
0
Views
1K
davidshnider
D

Recent Posts

Top