SidecarFlip
Well-Known Member
Sully....
I surmised you had sensory overload from last night.......
I surmised you had sensory overload from last night.......
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spotting scopes
- Thread starter patrick021
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Sully2
Well-Known Member
Sully....
I surmised you had sensory overload from last night.......
About what????
SidecarFlip
Well-Known Member
About all the attachments I sent you last night.....
You did get them?
You did get them?
Sully2
Well-Known Member
I didnt recieve doodle squat in my email...???
OXO...not zero x zero.......
I think you have gone round the bend Old Timer......at least Turned the Corner..????
SidecarFlip
Well-Known Member
They went somewhere, all 12 e-mails.
bruce_ventura
Well-Known Member
Low Price Range Spotting Scopes
Sorry for the slow reply. It took me a while to get my thoughts together. I'll break this up into three posts.
I tend to look for basic performance rather than gimmicky features, and avoid getting tied to any particular brand. I tend to prefer manufacturers that have a practice of designing and testing their own optical systems. What follows is a summary of my observations as both a developer and user. I divided scopes into four broad groups, depending on main design features and price.
The bottom. There isn't anything out there that I would recommend below $300. These scopes have large, polycarbonate bodies and conventional (non-HD) doublet objectives. Polycarbonate is used because of it's impact resistance and high temperature rating. Otherwise, it's not a good structural material for precision optics.
By today's standards, non-HD glass is pretty poor. Color fringing is noticeable everywhere in the field of view and the image goes out of focus about half-way toward the edge of the field of view. Eyepieces are small and have a very limited field of view and eye relief. They usually have rubber eyecups that roll back to increase eye relief. This is a useless feature, as the eye relief is nowhere close to being long enough for most eyeglass wearers. Lens surface quality is poor, resulting in low contrast images. Their use is limited to non-critical viewing tasks at short range. They generally fall into the "better than nothing" category. If you have to start here, I recommendation getting something with a good warranty.
Low price range: $300-800. There are lots of options in this price range, but you will likely want to trade up within a few years. These scopes are usually made in China at the low end, and the Philippines at the high end. These products will have variable quality control and return rates will be higher than average. Some products in this price range are really just cheaper product designs with upgraded lenses, so look closely at design details.
I recommend looking for a 50-65 mm doublet objective lens with HD, ED or XD glass (all seem to be synonymous terms), and fully multi-coated optics. These scopes will have a polycarbonate or fiber reinforced polymer (at the high end) body and a small, non-removable, short eye relief eyepiece. The objectives tend to have a long focal length, which makes the scope body long. The use of polycarbonate makes the scope body even more bulky. The big 80-85 mm scopes in this price range tend to be really LONG. The use of polycarbonate for the tripod mount is very common. Polycarbonate is not a very stiff material. The scope flexes rather easily, causing the image to shift and shake whenever the wind picks up or the scope is handled. This is especially the case for the rotating mount on angled scopes.
You can expect the mechanical controls to have loose tolerances and use lots of plastic parts. I find that zoom and focus adjustments eventually get loose and twist-up eyecups won't stay in position. I discourage people from going to the higher magnification, 80 mm or larger objective scopes in this price range. The short eye relief eyepiece usually does not allow effective use of a scope at 50X or higher magnification.
The Bushnell Legend Ultra HD is typical of scopes at low end of this price range. This scope is adequate for many applications but not great for anything in particular. Prolonged use can cause eye and neck strain and headaches. The reason is the need to constantly shift your eye to prevent the familiar bean-shaped obscuration as you look around the field of view. Scopes at the high end of this price range have somewhat better ergonomics. Notable examples include the Vixen Geoma II ED and Vortex Viper HD.
Sorry for the slow reply. It took me a while to get my thoughts together. I'll break this up into three posts.
I tend to look for basic performance rather than gimmicky features, and avoid getting tied to any particular brand. I tend to prefer manufacturers that have a practice of designing and testing their own optical systems. What follows is a summary of my observations as both a developer and user. I divided scopes into four broad groups, depending on main design features and price.
The bottom. There isn't anything out there that I would recommend below $300. These scopes have large, polycarbonate bodies and conventional (non-HD) doublet objectives. Polycarbonate is used because of it's impact resistance and high temperature rating. Otherwise, it's not a good structural material for precision optics.
By today's standards, non-HD glass is pretty poor. Color fringing is noticeable everywhere in the field of view and the image goes out of focus about half-way toward the edge of the field of view. Eyepieces are small and have a very limited field of view and eye relief. They usually have rubber eyecups that roll back to increase eye relief. This is a useless feature, as the eye relief is nowhere close to being long enough for most eyeglass wearers. Lens surface quality is poor, resulting in low contrast images. Their use is limited to non-critical viewing tasks at short range. They generally fall into the "better than nothing" category. If you have to start here, I recommendation getting something with a good warranty.
Low price range: $300-800. There are lots of options in this price range, but you will likely want to trade up within a few years. These scopes are usually made in China at the low end, and the Philippines at the high end. These products will have variable quality control and return rates will be higher than average. Some products in this price range are really just cheaper product designs with upgraded lenses, so look closely at design details.
I recommend looking for a 50-65 mm doublet objective lens with HD, ED or XD glass (all seem to be synonymous terms), and fully multi-coated optics. These scopes will have a polycarbonate or fiber reinforced polymer (at the high end) body and a small, non-removable, short eye relief eyepiece. The objectives tend to have a long focal length, which makes the scope body long. The use of polycarbonate makes the scope body even more bulky. The big 80-85 mm scopes in this price range tend to be really LONG. The use of polycarbonate for the tripod mount is very common. Polycarbonate is not a very stiff material. The scope flexes rather easily, causing the image to shift and shake whenever the wind picks up or the scope is handled. This is especially the case for the rotating mount on angled scopes.
You can expect the mechanical controls to have loose tolerances and use lots of plastic parts. I find that zoom and focus adjustments eventually get loose and twist-up eyecups won't stay in position. I discourage people from going to the higher magnification, 80 mm or larger objective scopes in this price range. The short eye relief eyepiece usually does not allow effective use of a scope at 50X or higher magnification.
The Bushnell Legend Ultra HD is typical of scopes at low end of this price range. This scope is adequate for many applications but not great for anything in particular. Prolonged use can cause eye and neck strain and headaches. The reason is the need to constantly shift your eye to prevent the familiar bean-shaped obscuration as you look around the field of view. Scopes at the high end of this price range have somewhat better ergonomics. Notable examples include the Vixen Geoma II ED and Vortex Viper HD.
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bruce_ventura
Well-Known Member
Mid Price Spotting Scopes
Mid price range: $800-1,200 (50-70 mm), $1,000-1,500 (75-85 mm). The higher quality scopes in this price range can provide years of good service. Many of them are still built in Japan and the US and have excellent quality control.
In this price range I recommend looking for scopes with aluminum or magnesium alloy frames or bodies, eyepieces with long eye relief, and HD/ED/XD doublet objectives. There are a lot of polycarbonate body scopes competing in this price range on the basis of extra features, and I recommend against them. Aluminum and magnesium alloys have a stiffness to weight ratio that is nearly 10 times that of polycarbonate. Metal alloy construction in the tripod mount and rotating ring on angled scopes is a big upgrade in this price range. Metal scope bodies are stiffer, more compact and usually lighter than comparable polycarbonate ones. This means the image will shake less during wind gusts and when the scope is being handled to adjust magnification, zoom, etc. High temperatures are generally bad in optics. Metal conducts heat much better than polycarbonate, so the internal optics will not have hot spots when the scope is exposed to direct sunlight.
The best scopes will have somewhat larger eyepieces that offer improved eye relief and field of view. While fatigue can still occur after prolonged use, these scopes are a big improvement compared to the low price range. They will have good transmission but colors will generally not be accurate. Image contrast will be good but not great. Be aware that HD/ED/XD doublet objectives have limitations. They produce a sharp image that is largely free from color fringing near the center of the field of view. This "sweet spot" will cover about ½-⅔ of the field of view. Beyond that the image sharpness will degrade due to focus shift.
Mechanical design and durability will be a big step up from the low end scopes. Zoom and magnification adjustments will be more precise and twist up eyecups are durable. Digiscoping options will be limited in this price range. At best the manufacturer will offer a digital camera mount that clamps onto the scope. Switching back and forth between the eye and camera is cumbersome. Extra features that are nice but not necessary include hydrophobic lens coatings to help shed water, optional eyepieces, etc.
In my opinion, examples of good 60-65 mm scopes in this price range include the Pentax PF-65 ED, Kowa TSN-663/664 and Brunton Eterna. Even though it lacks a removable eyepiece, the Leupold Gold Ring HD 60 mm is worth mentioning because it's so compact and durable, and the looong eye relief allows it to be used in almost any viewing position. The digiscoping attachments in the Gold Ring HD 60 mm kit depend on using fixed focal length DSLR lenses that fit the few thread adapters provided. Otherwise, they work very well. Note that these scopes have been on the market for a long time, and they offer high value. The 80-85 mm versions of these scopes are also good. For hunters, the larger objectives are warranted when the spotting during the twilight hours around sunrise and sunset. The larger objective also buys an extra f-stop or two when digiscoping.
Mid price range: $800-1,200 (50-70 mm), $1,000-1,500 (75-85 mm). The higher quality scopes in this price range can provide years of good service. Many of them are still built in Japan and the US and have excellent quality control.
In this price range I recommend looking for scopes with aluminum or magnesium alloy frames or bodies, eyepieces with long eye relief, and HD/ED/XD doublet objectives. There are a lot of polycarbonate body scopes competing in this price range on the basis of extra features, and I recommend against them. Aluminum and magnesium alloys have a stiffness to weight ratio that is nearly 10 times that of polycarbonate. Metal alloy construction in the tripod mount and rotating ring on angled scopes is a big upgrade in this price range. Metal scope bodies are stiffer, more compact and usually lighter than comparable polycarbonate ones. This means the image will shake less during wind gusts and when the scope is being handled to adjust magnification, zoom, etc. High temperatures are generally bad in optics. Metal conducts heat much better than polycarbonate, so the internal optics will not have hot spots when the scope is exposed to direct sunlight.
The best scopes will have somewhat larger eyepieces that offer improved eye relief and field of view. While fatigue can still occur after prolonged use, these scopes are a big improvement compared to the low price range. They will have good transmission but colors will generally not be accurate. Image contrast will be good but not great. Be aware that HD/ED/XD doublet objectives have limitations. They produce a sharp image that is largely free from color fringing near the center of the field of view. This "sweet spot" will cover about ½-⅔ of the field of view. Beyond that the image sharpness will degrade due to focus shift.
Mechanical design and durability will be a big step up from the low end scopes. Zoom and magnification adjustments will be more precise and twist up eyecups are durable. Digiscoping options will be limited in this price range. At best the manufacturer will offer a digital camera mount that clamps onto the scope. Switching back and forth between the eye and camera is cumbersome. Extra features that are nice but not necessary include hydrophobic lens coatings to help shed water, optional eyepieces, etc.
In my opinion, examples of good 60-65 mm scopes in this price range include the Pentax PF-65 ED, Kowa TSN-663/664 and Brunton Eterna. Even though it lacks a removable eyepiece, the Leupold Gold Ring HD 60 mm is worth mentioning because it's so compact and durable, and the looong eye relief allows it to be used in almost any viewing position. The digiscoping attachments in the Gold Ring HD 60 mm kit depend on using fixed focal length DSLR lenses that fit the few thread adapters provided. Otherwise, they work very well. Note that these scopes have been on the market for a long time, and they offer high value. The 80-85 mm versions of these scopes are also good. For hunters, the larger objectives are warranted when the spotting during the twilight hours around sunrise and sunset. The larger objective also buys an extra f-stop or two when digiscoping.
bruce_ventura
Well-Known Member
High Price Spotting Scopes
High price range. This range spans over $2,000 from the low to high end. Generally, I think you get what you pay for. The products at the high end will do a better job of implementing the features that distinguish these scopes from the mid-range products:
Apochromatic objective lens: The objective is a triplet design using HD/ED/XD glass. Color fringing is nearly absent and the sweet spot over which the image is crystal clear extends nearly from edge to edge.
Field flattener: Image blur near the edge of the field of view due to focus change (rather than color fringing) is also nearly absent. Image distortion is also significantly reduced.
Wide field of view: The eyepieces are enormous by comparison to low end scopes. They provide a wide field of view with a long eye relief that allows eyeglasses to be worn. For people with astigmatism or other vision problems that require eyeglasses, a high end scope is a good investment. The field of view is expansive and there is little or no "bean" obscuration as the viewer scans the eye across the field of view. Eye and neck strain from shifting the eye to avoid obscuration doesn't happen.
Color fidelity: Lens coatings are optimized for both high transmission and excellent color uniformity. Colors are accurate. Outer objective and eyepiece lens surfaces have hard, hydrophobic coatings that shed water and are easy to clean.
High contrast: Stray light and glare are significantly reduced through the proper use of internal coatings and "glare stops". The image is so bright and clear that it seems to jump out at you. Low contrast image details are visible, as though you were standing right next to the object.
Precision mechanics: Focus and zoom adjustments have excellent precision and stay tight, rather than becoming loose over time. These products have well thought out ergonomics and are a joy to use.
Durability: These scopes have either aluminum or magnesium alloy bodies, and usually have a rubber coating that protects the scope from scratches and dings.
Environmental: Scopes are rated for waterproofness, humidity and temperature range, just like military gear. This rating means the scope has been extensively tested in an environmental chamber.
Excellent digiscoping accessories: Digital camera attachments that fit in place of the eyepiece or over the eyepiece are offered. Switching back and forth from the eye to the camera is quick and easy.
Examples of scopes in this price range include the Vortex Razor HD (low end) and the Meopta S2 HD (mid range). Of course the high end "alpha glass" includes the Zeiss Victory Diascope, Leica APO Televid and Swarovski ATS/STS. The Swarovski ATX/STX modular scopes are the most versatile spotting scopes in the world. The top dogs in the digiscoping world are probably the Swarovski ATS/STS and ATX/STX because of the TLS APO digital camera lens system.
For most people, these high end scopes are a lifetime investment. They will give decades of service to the buyer and then be handed down to the next generation.
High price range. This range spans over $2,000 from the low to high end. Generally, I think you get what you pay for. The products at the high end will do a better job of implementing the features that distinguish these scopes from the mid-range products:
Apochromatic objective lens: The objective is a triplet design using HD/ED/XD glass. Color fringing is nearly absent and the sweet spot over which the image is crystal clear extends nearly from edge to edge.
Field flattener: Image blur near the edge of the field of view due to focus change (rather than color fringing) is also nearly absent. Image distortion is also significantly reduced.
Wide field of view: The eyepieces are enormous by comparison to low end scopes. They provide a wide field of view with a long eye relief that allows eyeglasses to be worn. For people with astigmatism or other vision problems that require eyeglasses, a high end scope is a good investment. The field of view is expansive and there is little or no "bean" obscuration as the viewer scans the eye across the field of view. Eye and neck strain from shifting the eye to avoid obscuration doesn't happen.
Color fidelity: Lens coatings are optimized for both high transmission and excellent color uniformity. Colors are accurate. Outer objective and eyepiece lens surfaces have hard, hydrophobic coatings that shed water and are easy to clean.
High contrast: Stray light and glare are significantly reduced through the proper use of internal coatings and "glare stops". The image is so bright and clear that it seems to jump out at you. Low contrast image details are visible, as though you were standing right next to the object.
Precision mechanics: Focus and zoom adjustments have excellent precision and stay tight, rather than becoming loose over time. These products have well thought out ergonomics and are a joy to use.
Durability: These scopes have either aluminum or magnesium alloy bodies, and usually have a rubber coating that protects the scope from scratches and dings.
Environmental: Scopes are rated for waterproofness, humidity and temperature range, just like military gear. This rating means the scope has been extensively tested in an environmental chamber.
Excellent digiscoping accessories: Digital camera attachments that fit in place of the eyepiece or over the eyepiece are offered. Switching back and forth from the eye to the camera is quick and easy.
Examples of scopes in this price range include the Vortex Razor HD (low end) and the Meopta S2 HD (mid range). Of course the high end "alpha glass" includes the Zeiss Victory Diascope, Leica APO Televid and Swarovski ATS/STS. The Swarovski ATX/STX modular scopes are the most versatile spotting scopes in the world. The top dogs in the digiscoping world are probably the Swarovski ATS/STS and ATX/STX because of the TLS APO digital camera lens system.
For most people, these high end scopes are a lifetime investment. They will give decades of service to the buyer and then be handed down to the next generation.
bruce_ventura
Well-Known Member
Spotting Scopes for Target Shooting
One last comment about scopes for target shooting: I recommend against using scopes larger than 65 mm for viewing targets at shooting ranges. Most people are familiar with mirage - the wavy distortion of an image during sunny days when the wind is up. However, sunlight also creates turbulent air that causes image blur, even when there is no wind. This effect is worse the closer one gets to the ground, and the hotter the temperature. The effect is also worse for larger objectives.
In my experience, when viewing across generally flat terrain like a shooting range, I am better off using a smaller objective of 65 mm or less. Under these conditions, an HD/ED/XD 65 mm lens will usually equal or outperform a larger scope. The higher magnification of the larger scope usually doesn't help, because it just makes a blurry image larger rather than allowing me to see more details. Unless you have serious vision problems or need to view targets in low light conditions, I think the smaller objective HD/ED/XD scope seems to work best in this application.
One last comment about scopes for target shooting: I recommend against using scopes larger than 65 mm for viewing targets at shooting ranges. Most people are familiar with mirage - the wavy distortion of an image during sunny days when the wind is up. However, sunlight also creates turbulent air that causes image blur, even when there is no wind. This effect is worse the closer one gets to the ground, and the hotter the temperature. The effect is also worse for larger objectives.
In my experience, when viewing across generally flat terrain like a shooting range, I am better off using a smaller objective of 65 mm or less. Under these conditions, an HD/ED/XD 65 mm lens will usually equal or outperform a larger scope. The higher magnification of the larger scope usually doesn't help, because it just makes a blurry image larger rather than allowing me to see more details. Unless you have serious vision problems or need to view targets in low light conditions, I think the smaller objective HD/ED/XD scope seems to work best in this application.
HARPERC
Well-Known Member
Thanks Bruce, good enough I'm printing for reference. I thought eye relief cups not being useful, and improvements with a large eyepiece were just me. Any thought as to why bino, and spotting scope don't have models with friendlier eye relief. It would seem to be a big chunk of the market?
varmintH8R
Well-Known Member
+1! Thanks as always for taking the time to put together a long, technical, well thought out response. It is extremely helpful and much appreciated.
patrick021
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Nov 17, 2012
- Messages
- 147
A+ on the advise
Cthemfly25
Well-Known Member
+2. The timing on this advise couldn't have been better and it kept me from making a rookie mistake. Many thanks
BMF
Well-Known Member
Wow, good stuff Mr. Bruce. So where would the Zeiss Dialyt be in the mix? It's about 1200$ so.....in the mid-class. Would it be comparable to the Gold Ring HD ?
Thanks Brent
Thanks Brent
