Some good news

[tayhot]

Talked to Ryan today from Barnes and it looks like by January, they will have a 200 gr TTSX in the .308 cal. Yes, it will be boattail and not flat based. The bc will be .540

I also exchanged several emails with im regarding his/Barnes thoughts on the Berger Bullets. He kept it very professional but did give me some very good info and insight comparing the two bullets. If anyone is interested, I can PM them the email.

 

[nheninge]

PM me the e-mail for curiosities sake. Guess it depends on the cost etc. A similiar Berger would have a 0.60 BC. Where in NM are you at?

 

[Moman]

I would like to read the info you have on this. Can you PM?

 

[tayhot]

All Pm's sent

 

[tayhot]

Barnes Tech Support is second to none in my opinion. Any problem I have had they have answered right away and explained it to me in great detail. On top of that, their product is one of the best.

Basically, I had questions about their bc's and how they come up with them compared to their competition. There are many ways to skin that cat, but think they do it very well and do not OVERSTATE the bc's like other bullet manufacturers. We then talked about their product vs Bergers for hunting applications. It's funny how we can fall into companies marketing hype and thats what I felt like I was doing with the Bergers. Now I know a lot of people love to use Bergers, it is just my opinion on how a hunting bullet should be designed and how it should perfrom on game. Barnes TTSX bullet covers this and Bergers are an excellent target shooting bullet. However, hunting passed 600 yards with the Barnes takes more work than using the Bergers, but then again you would be using a bullet designed for paper and not hide, flesh, and bone. Again, just my opinion, what do I know

Personally, I do not feel comfortable hunting passed 600-650 yards because I do not have the experience nor the talent to do so and not afraid to admit that fact.

On bullet performance, it makes sense to me that a bullet should retain as much of its original weight as possible and not fragment, loosing 50%-60% of original weight. The flip side to having a bullet perfrom like the Barnes, that retains its weight very well, is that in theory, you can get a pass through shot and not take down game quickly. My experience with the TTSX has been on three black bear, two elk, 3 mule deer, and a mt lion and in each instance the bullet stayed completly in tack, mushroomed and the devastation inside the animal was amazing. On one of the bears I took last year, one of the petals was pushed down flat from hitting bone.

So I guess with all this rambling, if you plan on hunting within 600 yards, Barnes would be the top of my list. If you hunt passed those ranges, Bergers should be considered along with Barnes.

 

[MontanaRifleman]

Tayhot,

I agree with you on desired bullet performce for the most part, depending on the game and hunting situation. There is something to be said for colateral damage caused by bullets partialy framenting. For larger and more dangerous game, a bullet that holds together and penetrates farther is definitely preferred. That being said, pretty much all the bullets available for hunting will get the job done 95% of the time on all NA big game, except maybe the big bears of Alaska. They do it in different ways. I prefer controlled expansion, and some bullet mass loss is acceptable, because it will cause colateral damage.

In the monometals, the GS bullets are superior, but thay are also spendy. I like the E-Tips better than the Barnes because they have a better BC, they are made from a tougher guilded metal and their poly tips seem to be more rugged. I also like their expansion characteristics better.

On the subject of BC and honesty, IMO, Berger leads the pack. If you have been reading any of these other threads, you will see that there are numerous drag models used to measure BC. The G1 is a very poor model to measure boattail low drag bullets. However, Barnes and the other bullet manufactureres refuse, let me repeat... refuse to convert to the more appropriate models because the G1 is a "bigger" number and sells better. So I would suggest that you go back and chat with John or Tye and ask them why they are using the G1 BCs and not the G7 or G5?

Also, after reading the article Barnes put out to discredit the Berger bullets, my respect for Barnes all but vanished. I think it was a low handed marketing attack filled with a lot of misinformation. To suggest that any Barnes bullet is suitable for hunting use out to 1000 yds in the cartridges they mentioned is absurd. Unfortunately, most of the hunting public is ignorant of the technical facts relating to LR shooting and hunting and will buy into that BS.

Finally, I have to really scratch my head when they publish that Barnes bullets out performed Bergers in accuracy tests. Just who performed those tests? I guess the BR shooters just dont get it??? Why are they using Bergers and SMKs in BR and F-class competition and not the Barnes bullets that shoot so much better? It just escapes me.

Again, I say this as a person who prefers a controled expansion bullet. I would only use Bergers as a last resort because I just dont care for explosive type bullets.

So what bullet company is really trying to get honest figures out to the public and what company is trying to sell their product?

Mark

 

[tayhot]

Very good post Mark.

There is a lot of info to share and that was my intent with my original post. To share my htoughts and hear from others.

If someone is hunting to 600 yards, who cares what the bc is? So what if Barnes bc's arent as good as Bergers? Passed 600 yards knowing the G7 may be valueable, but 0-600 yards is not a big deal. My opinion. It is also my opinion, that Barnes bullets perfrom better.

So again, hunting out to 600 yards, are we all falling into the marketing hype of the bullet companies worrying who has the higher bc? Perfromance would seem more desireable. Does it matter or not if they supply a G7 bc?

 

[Pdvdh]

Re: Definition of Long Range yardage

I would note that this is a long range hunting forum, and long range starts at around 500 yds for many of the members. The argument that BC isn't that critical is more true at less than 500 yds than from 500 yds out to 1000 plus yds. Just a note to point out the fact that BC is pretty darn important to many of the members because they are preparing loads to engage big game at distances that the average hunter would shake his/her head and walk away in disbelief.

 

[bigngreen]

I have been a huge Barnes fan for years, I have dug litteraly hundreds out of game while processing them and they are real easy on meat and kill well, I have never had an animal DRT with one but I don't target bone.
I believe in not knocking it till you try it so I gave the Bergers a try this year, I was real hesitant to use them so I have a back up load with a Accubond. When I used the Berger this year I was extremely pleased, my shots ended up under 400yrds and there was less meat damage than I have had with the Barnes, they go in three inches or so and then blow. I usually don't go for this kinda bullet but man they work.
I would be carefull about getting hyped on Barnes or Berger, they are different bullets and function different.
I have had some poor results from Barnes, I have yet to one shot kill a elk with one, last year I had a 168tsx not penetrate and elk chest after a shoulder shot, it turned and exited out the front of her chest. This year a friend shot a elk and deer with 165 tsx and not one exited, all three shots blew up like a Berger, we cut a bullet to verify they were Barnes we were shock that they blew up, the animal did however DRT.
I have also never got a Barnes under MOA and the Bergers shot well under MOA with very little tinkering in the same rifles.
I was very bummed to see Barnes act like a bunch of children over Berger bullets being used to hunt with, if they want to get into Berger's pocket then do it with a bullet that will shoot good in competition not by trying to discredit fellow members in the industry.

 

[nheninge]

Just looked at the price for those new TTSX's at Midway $39.99 for 50. Same class of Bergers is roughly $39.99...for 100. Pretty hard to dispute the economics there! Are they twice as good? Not likely. B.C. is very important since it may mean the difference in 1 vs. 2 revolutions of my turret at long range among other reasons. Additionally, Berger just LOWERED their reported BC d/t Litz's data. I don't think Berger company is trying to artificially inflate numbers for sales. I am also sure that the grooved rings help with chamber pressures and make the bullet look pretty, but they also decrease B.C. G7 might not be a good fit for this shape of bullet so Barnes can't report it. Maybe they need to come up with a G6.32465 curve to fit their special shape! Thanks for sharing Tayhot. I'm not sold, but thanks again.

 

[MontanaRifleman]

Very good post Mark.

There is a lot of info to share and that was my intent with my original post. To share my htoughts and hear from others.

If someone is hunting to 600 yards, who cares what the bc is? So what if Barnes bc's arent as good as Bergers? Passed 600 yards knowing the G7 may be valueable, but 0-600 yards is not a big deal. My opinion. It is also my opinion, that Barnes bullets perfrom better.

So again, hunting out to 600 yards, are we all falling into the marketing hype of the bullet companies worrying who has the higher bc? Perfromance would seem more desireable. Does it matter or not if they supply a G7 bc?

Tayhot,

Good point. Who cares about BC if if someone is "only" hunting to 600 yds? Some of the guys I know look at me like, 'what are you doing?' when I talk about ranges like that. As phorwath said, this site is dedicated to LR hunting, and 600 yds is on the low end of the LRH spectrum. But even out to just 600 yds with a few cartridges BC matters a lot to 600 yds and in any case, higher BC will get the bullet there with more velocity, energy/momentum and less wind drift.

Which is more important, BC or terminal performance? I think that's a personal preference with the bottom line being a dead animal on the receiving end. Some folks prefer explosive bullets and there is something to be said for that type of performance, although it's not my cup of tea. In most cases it will kill quicker than a monometal. I dont care for the potential damage it does to the meat. I've also read "some" reports of inconsistant performance. But then again I've read the same of Barnes and Nolsers and Hornadys and Sierras.

I mentioned BC mostly in response to your mention of it and in these forums it is a big topic. You pointed out that many bullet makers exagerate their BC's and that is probably true. Bryan Litz' testing seems to bear that out. But then again, what velocities and atmospheric conditions were used in obtaining the BC's? Do G7 profiles matter? I think for many or most of the hunters in these forums it does. It give a more acurate represntation of the bullets performance over wide margin of ranges. This is especially critical beyond 100 yds or even beyond 800-900 yds, as bullets will start losing BC efficiency at these ranges and velocities which result in misses. That may be beyond where you shoot, but most here prepare for that type of shooting.

If the monometal peroformance is what you like, by all means use them. I also prefer them, but the Barnes bullets are down the list for me. I like the GS bullets best (haven't usded them yet), followed by the E-Tips or GMX's (depending on BC) then the TTSX. Have you tried the E-Tips yet? For reasons already mentioned I think they are better than the TSX/TTSX.

Assuming that a bullet will give me some sort of reasonable terminal performance, accuracy is the most important thing I look for follwed by BC.

Good shooting and good hunting,

Mark