Rifles to avoid?

[DarryH]

DPMS, Bushmaster, Remington, all owned by the same corporation.
At one time I liked all these brands.
Now......not so much. The corporation had mixed and matched parts and barrels.
I feel quality has suffered a great deal.

I have an earlier Bushmaster, and I love it. Well made, reliable, and accurate.

I have a Rock River Arms that is giving me sub-MOA groups.
Actually, I have quite a few 300 yard groups under and inch, which is
full blown fantastic!!!! Factory built gun with 1 I 7 twist, target grade trigger,
very good scope, solid bench, early morning shooting with no wind, and a major
component......Black Hills 77 grain boat tail match grade ammo!!!!!!!!!

I have nothing against Olympic Arms. While they seem a bit rough around the edges sometimes, and the colors other finish often vary a bit, they generally shoot very well. They do not use chrome lined barrels. I have had a couple of these, and NEVER had functioning or accuracy issues.

I have built 3 AR's now, and have found parts kits vary a great deal in quality.
My least favorite lower parts kit is DPMS. I have had multiple pins that were not
the proper size, and had to be replaced. Didn't much care for the trigger either.
My Palmetto State Amory lower parts kits have been great!!

Good Shootin!!
DarryH

 

[ncwg2boatguy]

I have had 7 DPMS rifles and while some were better than others, all of them shot atleast 1.5" MOA @ 100yds. Fit and finish is not as good as some but that can be cured in house. Expecially for the younger generation because youtube has an instructional video for everything AR. And while alot are Yayhoo's there are alot of quality videos. If your budget minded there is nothing wrong with DPMS. Cant think of any reason you would need a 1600$-2000$ baseline AR unless you where heading into combat. I have a 10 yr old DPMS AR15 with a profile barrel that has over 8,000 rds through it. It still shoots bottle caps at 100yds with a 3-9x40 scope. I do love this forum though. Everyone is civil and very respectful instead of saying *** and Turd.

Budget aint a bad thing...You need an AR. Its the new 22lr like when I was a kid.

 

[DarryH]

Thought I should ad a note about direct gas impingement (DGI) vrs.
piston driven AR's.

You pay a premium for these piston driven models. Are they worth it???

I say that is up the individual.
They tend to stay cleaner, so if you do not have the opportunity to do regular routine maintenance, they have an advantage.
If you are running full auto, they stay cleaner, so you have an advantage.


Piston driven AR's weigh a little more than DGI..but as far as I am concerned, the difference in weight makes for no advantage or disadvantage.

Piston driven AR's are more expensive than DGI AR's.
There is not a lot of parts interchangeability in piston driven AR's.
Some say piston driven AR's are harder on the bolt and other parts of an AR.
I am NOT an expert, nor do I do a lot of work on AR's, so I cannot speak as an authority on this issue. My friends who run pistons have had NO breakdowns.

Personally, I feel there are a lot of good basic AR's for sale starting around $750.
I cannot see paying over $1300 for any AR, but that is just me.

Good Shootin!!
DarryH

 

[Gary Kaney]

My son bought a DPMS Sportical last fall. He wanted an AR, but didn't want to spend a lot of money. He put a Leup. Mark AR on it 1" groups @100 yds. out of the box with Fed. ammo. It's now 3 coyotes later. He's a happy camper.

 

[left handed gun]

I am in the market myself, having gotten some "found money" (bonus).

I was really interested in the Sig 516.
I have hefted a few in gun shops, did not notice the nose heavy feel others talk about.

Only one I've actually shot is a Daniel Defense DGI M4 carbine, rental gun, at a very short indoor range.

The DD M4 ran fine. I prefer actual scopes or even iron sights to the sort of optic it had. But it ran through all the ammo I cared to feed it, no problem.

I am amazed at how easy it is to get a hot debate started over the different brands.

I see posts saying Sig 516 would be greatest thing since sliced bread if it had a better trigger.

Other posts (and a fair number) saying Gen 1 Sig 516 had FTF probs, and that non-Swiss made Sigs are crap.

It was an American Rifleman review a few years back that got me interested in the Sig.

Now I've learned there are some "premier or top-tier" direct gas and piston designs, and some people think the best are Noveske (DGI), LWRC (piston), Lewis Machine T., (both), Colt ( mostly DGI and 1 piston), and maybe POF (piston) or DD (DGI) in the mix somewhere. I guess Les Baer maybe in the mix too.

I have had a salesman, clearly at least knowledgeable, with both Sigs and Colts, express his strong preference for Colt. He claims if you run the Colt on the wet side of lubed, at the critical points, it will run just fine.

I will admit the high opinion of current Colt ARs surprises me because, (1) they were a major supplier of the original M-16, and anyone who claims some soldiers did not have issues with them jamming is simply wrong. Maybe it was a misguided effort to use the wrong propellant, or failure to provide dry slide or some lube, or failure to instruct you needed to clean them often, but they had congressional hearings on this. So to say the piston is a solution in search of a problem seems just wrong. Maybe they ironed it out a lot in the M4 version. But my understanding is the M4 still experienced a fair number of combat jamsin the desert wars, and that was a reason for looking at the HK 416.

Now, the design, M16A1 and later M4 had a lot of virtues too. It was lighter, handier for getting out of helicopters, kicked less than M14, you could carry much more ammo. All the reasons (save for getting out of helos)why I'd like to get one, despite already having an M1A keeper rifle.

But back to Colt. I had a good friend in college, knowledgeable about guns, very big on Colts. He had a CAR-15, Gold Cup 1911, and a Python. The Python and Gold cup were beautifully blued. Both were pretty accurate, though not moreso than my Smith 686 with action job. But my recollection is the CAR and the Gold cup had occasional FTF issues. So to now hear the Colt 6920 and 6940 are considered top tier, bet your life guns surprises me a little.

The other thing I am a little surprised at is the fairly modest accuracy claims for the very expensive (to me) top tier stuff. I don't think Noveske, LWRC, LMT or POF has an accuracy claim. Given the fact that those are well above 4 figures, and some approach what you would pay for a beater vehicle, I wonder what you get for the money.

And on some of the AR forums, I see defenders of the platform saying the DOD spec is about 4 MOA. Well, I think that is correct, but if so, that doesn't seem like much of a standard. I'm no crack shot, and have many bad habits I'm trying to shed shooting wise. But if I couldn't get 2 MOA, shooting my M1A about as fast as I can line it up, that's an awfully bad day. And it will do closer to 1 with Fed GMM 168 BT. Closer still if you let the bbl stay cool, really check your cheek weld, etc. (It does have a NM bbl., nice NM trigger, sights, and NM flash suppressor for whatever the heck the latter does. It is not glass bedded.)

So I admit being puzzled. I thought the AR was inherently more accurate than M1A . I know it dominates the centerfire shooting competitions now.

Is it a matter of with Noveske, LWRC, POF, DD, and maybe current Colts, you are paying for SHTF/ end of world type reliability, and not the last degree of accuracy?

Stated another way, are the AR platforms used to get last degree of accuracy in competition built to such tight tolerances, or hot rodded such that they are unreliable for other purposes?

Sorry to hijack thread with long post. But if anyone has some answers on (1) reliability of current Colts 6920/6940, (2) any thoughts on current Sig 516, based on actual ownership or use, (2) and what one really gets for the $$ with some of the top tier guns, I'd appreciate it.

 

[DarryH]

Not meaning to sound stuffy or rude, but I think you read too much.
Take all that you read, and believe about 25% of it. That might get you close to the truth.

Every gun platform has had issues from time to time. Somebody is always going to get a lemon. One person writes about their bad luck, and 50 more read it and take it as gospel, and start preaching it themselves.

Yes, early Colt M16's had issues. No chrome lined bores in tropical areas,
not issued with cleaning kit or cleaning instructions, and a government trying to save money and using the wrong powder. All that happened......in the 1960's!!!!!
Current issued M16 variants are some of the best guns used by any military in the world. That was aid by none less than Uziel Gal, inventor of the Uzi submachine gun. There will always be issues....wear, climate, maintenance, etc.
It is still in use by our military for a reason, as well as being the choice of many other agencies and governments world wide.

Are current Colt made AR's the best???? Best at what????
There are many good to great variations out there. To proclaim one to best the best is arrogant at least. Compared to SOME other brands of AR's, Colt's DO seem to hold the value better.

4 MOA accuracy....I've seen badly worn or maintained, or poorly shot AR's do that.
The majority seem closer to 2 MOA. The guns used in combat were not intended
to hit a prairie dog's eye at 300 yards, but I have a Rock River that does that pretty well. I would not take that Rock River to war though. Very tight tolerances
and I amusing ammo that is premium priced, especially compared to Mil-Spec ammo.

More accurate than the M1A????? At closer ranges I would say yes.....most of the time. Those heavy 308 bullets do better past 400 yards, especially in the wind.
The AR is an easy platform to get accuracy from, just because of the way it is built.
A good barrel mated properly to the receiver, a good trigger, and good ammo, and most can shoot very well. A free-float forearm and a proper muzzle brake are icing on the cake. It is much easier to tune up the AR than the M1A.

The SIG does not handle well for me. The few I have shot had no issues.
Not all guns are good matches for every shooter.

If you like the SIG better.....buy it. Don't worry about what others say or think.
Find out for yourself.

I probably have forgotten a lot of things, and I am too lazy to proofread my poor typing, so sorry if my message is not perfect.

Like I said.....I am not trying to be critical, only informative.

Good Shootin!!
DarryH
Nebraska

I am in the market myself, having gotten some "found money" (bonus).

I was really interested in the Sig 516.
I have hefted a few in gun shops, did not notice the nose heavy feel others talk about.

Only one I've actually shot is a Daniel Defense DGI M4 carbine, rental gun, at a very short indoor range.

The DD M4 ran fine. I prefer actual scopes or even iron sights to the sort of optic it had. But it ran through all the ammo I cared to feed it, no problem.

I am amazed at how easy it is to get a hot debate started over the different brands.

I see posts saying Sig 516 would be greatest thing since sliced bread if it had a better trigger.

Other posts (and a fair number) saying Gen 1 Sig 516 had FTF probs, and that non-Swiss made Sigs are crap.

It was an American Rifleman review a few years back that got me interested in the Sig.

Now I've learned there are some "premier or top-tier" direct gas and piston designs, and some people think the best are Noveske (DGI), LWRC (piston), Lewis Machine T., (both), Colt ( mostly DGI and 1 piston), and maybe POF (piston) or DD (DGI) in the mix somewhere. I guess Les Baer maybe in the mix too.

I have had a salesman, clearly at least knowledgeable, with both Sigs and Colts, express his strong preference for Colt. He claims if you run the Colt on the wet side of lubed, at the critical points, it will run just fine.

I will admit the high opinion of current Colt ARs surprises me because, (1) they were a major supplier of the original M-16, and anyone who claims some soldiers did not have issues with them jamming is simply wrong. Maybe it was a misguided effort to use the wrong propellant, or failure to provide dry slide or some lube, or failure to instruct you needed to clean them often, but they had congressional hearings on this. So to say the piston is a solution in search of a problem seems just wrong. Maybe they ironed it out a lot in the M4 version. But my understanding is the M4 still experienced a fair number of combat jamsin the desert wars, and that was a reason for looking at the HK 416.

Now, the design, M16A1 and later M4 had a lot of virtues too. It was lighter, handier for getting out of helicopters, kicked less than M14, you could carry much more ammo. All the reasons (save for getting out of helos)why I'd like to get one, despite already having an M1A keeper rifle.

But back to Colt. I had a good friend in college, knowledgeable about guns, very big on Colts. He had a CAR-15, Gold Cup 1911, and a Python. The Python and Gold cup were beautifully blued. Both were pretty accurate, though not moreso than my Smith 686 with action job. But my recollection is the CAR and the Gold cup had occasional FTF issues. So to now hear the Colt 6920 and 6940 are considered top tier, bet your life guns surprises me a little.

The other thing I am a little surprised at is the fairly modest accuracy claims for the very expensive (to me) top tier stuff. I don't think Noveske, LWRC, LMT or POF has an accuracy claim. Given the fact that those are well above 4 figures, and some approach what you would pay for a beater vehicle, I wonder what you get for the money.

And on some of the AR forums, I see defenders of the platform saying the DOD spec is about 4 MOA. Well, I think that is correct, but if so, that doesn't seem like much of a standard. I'm no crack shot, and have many bad habits I'm trying to shed shooting wise. But if I couldn't get 2 MOA, shooting my M1A about as fast as I can line it up, that's an awfully bad day. And it will do closer to 1 with Fed GMM 168 BT. Closer still if you let the bbl stay cool, really check your cheek weld, etc. (It does have a NM bbl., nice NM trigger, sights, and NM flash suppressor for whatever the heck the latter does. It is not glass bedded.)

So I admit being puzzled. I thought the AR was inherently more accurate than M1A . I know it dominates the centerfire shooting competitions now.

Is it a matter of with Noveske, LWRC, POF, DD, and maybe current Colts, you are paying for SHTF/ end of world type reliability, and not the last degree of accuracy?

Stated another way, are the AR platforms used to get last degree of accuracy in competition built to such tight tolerances, or hot rodded such that they are unreliable for other purposes?

Sorry to hijack thread with long post. But if anyone has some answers on (1) reliability of current Colts 6920/6940, (2) any thoughts on current Sig 516, based on actual ownership or use, (2) and what one really gets for the $$ with some of the top tier guns, I'd appreciate it.

 

[Trever]

I agree 100% darryh

 

[left handed gun]

Your welcome. Clearly a topic with many opinions. And as they say about opinions...

If no one has more to offer on this topic, I'll just try some, buy one, and whatever I wind up with will be the cat's, uh, meow, and all other brands crap.
And if not, I'll stick it on the WTS classifieds with a target photo showing 30 rounds into .000046 inches at 1785 yards, shot upside down, underwater, rapid fire, all for about $10 less than I paid for it, retail, tax included.

 

[left handed gun]

Darryl H.-- In all seriousness, thanks for your post. I spent a lot of the afternoon in traffic, so a little worn out. Highlight of the day was getting to shoot--for about 25 minutes--at a public range. This is first sunny day we've had in close to a month.

I am narrowing it down to Colt 6920 or 6940, DGI, or Sig 516. Daniel Def. n the mix, but they command a pretty good premium here. One place had a brand called "Core." Piston gun and the trigger was noticeably crisper and better feel than the others. But I'd never heard of them.

 

[left handed gun]

I had heard good things about RRA accuracy. There was a shop that sold them, up around Dayton, OH (45 miles from me) couple years before the last "panic", and scarcity. His prices were great but I did not snap one up then. Then he went out of business, and for a while you could not get a new AR anywhere.

Anyway, you answered one of my questions-- the higher accuracy potential gets realized at some trade off in reliability.

 

[westcliffe01]

Wow, left handed gun, that was really an educational post...

All I can say is KNOW what you are buying.

Who made the barrel, what twist rate is it, what contour ? Was the manufacturer a match barrel company or are they an OE manufacturer. Few OE's make good quality barrels and even fewer make match quality barrels.
What type of trigger ? Triggers are expensive upgrades and your milspec hammer/trigger will be worthless.
Is the fore end free floated ? No free floating, don't expect much better than 2MOA.
Does it have an adjustable stock ? Not quite as expensive as a trigger upgrade, but still significant.

In a recent steel vs brass ammo test, several identical Bushmaster/DPMS AR's were used. Some of the rifles did not have the barrel nuts torqued properly and shot terribly until the crew figured it out and re-assembled them properly. http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/brass-vs-steel-cased-ammo/

You will note that in the referenced article, they say that the trigger weight ranged from 8-10lb and that the group size was about 3.5MOA and the 2 improperly assembled rifles were over 5MOA. This is not the typical story one gets from AR owners.

 

[left handed gun]

Post above is correct that many of the problems w/ M16A1 back in Vietnam days had to do w/ lack of chrome bbls, failure to maintain, failure to teach troops to maintain.
The propellant issue was also critical, for a gun design that even its devotees admit "cr-ps" on itself as it runs. During first deployment of M16s, the DOD used a powder the gun was not designed for. Guess they got a good deal on it.

I do plead guilty to reading a lot, but I try to be critical about what I read.
One thing I read was David Hackworth's account of how he tried the M16 out while it was still fairly new, and concluded it did one thing really well-- jam.
Hackworth was pretty controversial, but he loved the M1 Garand and the BAR (he also served in Korea), and respected the Kalashnikov for what it was, a little sloppy and crude tolerances but very reliable. So his comments regarding weapons weren't too off base.

To be fair, I also read the book about the Ia Drang battle in Viet Nam, where Hal Moore credited the M16 and the Huey pilots with saving the day for the Air Cav.

I would agree the AR makers have fixed a lot of things over 40 years. But see:

The USA's M4 Carbine Controversy

I do see an awful lot of people with DGI guns, who seem to experience no problems. But I see them on the range and we don't get too many sand storms here. If snow would provide good test conditions we have had plenty of that lately.

My brother was in the 101st Airborne, 1st Gulf War. He has an M4, but his favorite gun, hands down is an M1A with iron sights. For me, the M1A is a sweet shooter, very reliable, but you need a wheelbarrow to roll it around. And for me, it is a little unwieldy to shoot off shoulder, no rest. And the ammo is heavier and at least a little pricier. That's why I'm looking at the M4s. That, and I just like to try something different occasionally.

 

[ncwg2boatguy]

Daryl hit the nail on the head. And on a side note, I have a Sig 516 and big brother in 308. Very dependable but not anymore accurate than a Bushmaster carbine or my DPMS 308LR. Comes down to what your budget is. Then go get some "Recoil" therapy Brother.

Jimbo

 

[FAL Shot]

I had 4 different AR-15 rifles. Colt, DPMS, Bushmaster, Olympic. Sold them all. Suckass triggers. Handles like a log wagon. I wanted a rifle that shot like a Ferrari drives.

Bought a CZ-527 Varmint in .223 Rem with an HS Precision kevlar stock.

With good handloads it is a 1/4 MOA rifle right out of the box. Excellent trigger, standard or set. The more you shoot it, the better it shoots. The way you fine tune a CZ rifle is just keep shooting it. They get better and better with use. I own four of them. Unlike the 4 AR-15 rifles I owned, I like all of them and have no intention of selling any. ALL of them are tack drivers out of the box, with decent handloads.