Remington 260...The new Sniper rifle?

[Porter]

Hey everyone,
I have been doing some research on the Remington 260 and from what I have seen it is a pretty impressive round.
Here is a article I read on it-
The Case for .260 Remington: A Better Cartridge For Practical Long-Range Shooting
It seams like this would be a great overall round to use for Competition/Hunting/recreational shooting.
So what is the over all opinion on this round? I am seriously considering converting my Rem 700 243 to this caliber. Please give me all the info/opinions you have on this caliber so I can make an educated decision.
Thanks in advance for all your help,
Porter lightbulb

 

[Michael Eichele]

I always love to read these articles that claim this cartridge or that cartridge blows the 308 out of the water. Again we read of mountains and mountains of "paper" ballistics.

In the real world the 260 can have a slight performance gain at 1K over the 308. Blow it out of the water? Hardley. You gain a whopping 12" of trajectory and a whopping 18" of less drift in a 10 MPH wind and a whopping 83 FPE at 1K. What does this all meen at 1K? you still have to compensate for wind and drop and you get a smaller hole with less barrel life. With the 308 you get bigger, heavier bullets with more velocity than the smaller lighter ones. Out to 600 the 308 will do better, albiet slightly in 2 out of the 3 main catergories (drop, wind, energy). About as much as difference as the 260 over the 308 at 1K. That is minimal. What they fail to tell you is that in a 26" barrel you can get 3000 FPS with the 155 SCENAR. Also with a standard 308 12x barrel you get much less sideways torque than you do with the 9-10 twists used in the 260.

There is a reason you still see the 308 on the front lines.

Again, if you want to "blow the 308 out of the water" using a smaller bullet in the same old case is NOT the place to do it. If an idavidual wants to blow the 308 out of the water, use a bigger case.

 

[Porter]

Thanks for that great reply. lightbulb In the Army we always used the 175gr HPBT M118LR. This was "THE BEST" round for the 308 as far as the Army was concerned. You mentioned a 155gr bullet. Do you know what the BC was on that? I would like to run it through my ballistic program and see what that shows. Are there any bullets out there for the 308 that have a .6 0r higher BC?

 

[Michael Eichele]

The 155 SCENAR is published at .508 I have tested this and found it to be very close. As far as bullets in the .6's, several of the sierra MK and berger bullets as well as the 208 AMAX. Sierra has one in the .700's

 

[260shooter]

Porter

I owned a 308 for 10 years, and have owned a 260 REM for the last 6 years.
My 308 experience was with the 168 SMK at 2700 fps. With my 260 I am running a 123 gr Lapua (BC 547) at 2950 fps. At the magical 1000 yard line the 308 looks like this.

168 @ 2700fps
Wind in MOA 10.1
Drop in MOA 34.4
Energy 441 ft lbs

The 260 like this.

123 @ 2950 fps
Wind in MOA 7
Drop in MOA 27
Energy 543 ft lbs

A 3 minute wind difference is significant . If you miss judge a wind call the 260 is more forgiving.
Run the numbers. the 260 beats the 308 across the board except in barrel life. I had my 260 barrel set back at 1700 rounds, the beggining of the lands and grooves were just starting to crack, the rifle still shot very well. Have around 2000 rounds on the barrel now and it still shoots .3-.4 most of the time. I am expecting another 1000 rounds till this barrel becomes a tomato stake.

260

 

[Michael Eichele]

260shooter,

That is all well and good except the 168 is anything BUT a 1K bullet. There are so much more to a 308 than a 168 SMK.

Dont get me wrong, I am in no way saying the 308 is superior to the 260 or vice versa. Superior is a subjective term. You still have to take into concideration other options.

 

[260shooter]

Michael you are correct. If my main concern was shooting 800 and beyond, I would use something with more boiler room. I consider the 308 a good 700 yard cartridge and the 260 good for 850. Both will punch holes in paper very nicely to 1K.
As far as a new sniper cartridge the department of defense has come to it's senses and is looking at a .338 caliber cartridge (probably the .338 Lapua) of some type.

I have a 7MM REM MAG sitting at my gunsmiths ready to go except for a few pieces, that will fill the long range bill for me. Hope to launch 168 gr Bergers at 3000 fps or so.

I myself am very interested in JEFFVN's 7MM Holy Grail project. I am also impressed with the 7MM ALLEN MAG. They both have a lot to like (except a short barrel life in a military enviroment) . Both cartridges are more suited to a reloader/hunter type situation

 

[Porter]

wow! this is all great info. I have a couple questions on what you guys wrote....

260 Shooter- Could the wind drift difference between the 260/308 be fixed if one were using a lighter bullet in the 308? Or perhaps if we used a bullet with a higher BC? Is it really that much of a difference between the rounds that the 308s ballistics can't be made to match?

Michael- You said the 168 is anything but a 1K bullet. What would you suggest for that purpose? Also you said sierra has a bullet with a BC in the .700 range. Do you know which one exactly and what is your opinion of it?

From what I understand, the BC of a bullet is very important so the higher the better right? Why use a bullet with a BC of .54 when you can use one with a .700?

 

[Michael Eichele]

The sierra 240 MK sports a BC of .711 and is an awesome bullet but a wee bit too big to make it practical for the 308 winnie. Some guys do use it though for the extreemly long paper or gong pokes. It will carry much farther than just about anything.

The 168 is a great mid range target bullet capable of amazing accuracy but wasnt designed for 1K shooting. The real world experiances of myself and countless others selidify sierra's claims that it is not intended for 1K shooting. The 155 sierra palma bullet is specifecly desined for the 308 and 1K shooting as is the 175 SMK. Both do amazingly well both for accuracy and good BC's. The 190 was never desined for the 308 but works quite well. The 155 SCENAR with a BC of .508 at velocities around 3000 is about the best you can do for a match load "on paper". The results in standard air are:

1000 yards
Velocity = 1455
Energy = 729
Drop = 253"
Wind (10 MPH) = 73"

260 139 SCENAR

1000 yards
Velocity = 1569
Energy = 760
Drop = 250
Wind (10 MPH) = 61"

My point is and always is that the 260 maybe "better" perfoming than the 308 but hardly "blows the 308 out of the water". The 308 is still plenty capable and is more than capable of holding its own. Factor in the fact that you can go to the range much more often and actually get to know your rifle instead of worring about the round count never hurt anything either.

That was from a "match" standpoint. Now lets compare practical hunting senarios.

Elk at 600 yards.

308 with 180 AB.

Velocity = 1751
Energy = 1225
Drop = 64"
Wind (10 MPH) = 26"

260 with 140 AB

Velocity = 1817
Energy = 1026
Drop = 59"
Wind (10 MPH) = 26"

Which bullet do want in the shoulder?

If I had to shoot an elk at 600 yards I would rather havethe same inches of wind drift and a few more inches of drop AND a 7.62mm 180 ACCUBOND heading for the shoulder than a 6.5mm 140 grain ACCUBOND.

 

[RockyMtnMT]

Meichele,

I have not had the time to run the 260 w/ the 130 Scirroco's, how does it come in? I think, if I remember correctly the bc is .512. I ran this bullet in a 6.5-06 for the higher bc and better weight retention, plus a little better velocity.

It's 3am and I am headed out to plow, if no one gets a chance to run the #,s, I'll try to tomorrow.

Steve

 

[tundraotto]

Elk at 600 yards.

308 with 180 AB.

Velocity = 1751
Energy = 1225
Drop = 64"
Wind (10 MPH) = 26"

260 with 140 AB

Velocity = 1817
Energy = 1026
Drop = 59"
Wind (10 MPH) = 26"

Which bullet do want in the shoulder?

THE ONE WITH 25% MORE ENERGY..!?

 

[Jerry D]

The 6.5mm bullet of the same design will have a higher sectional density of the .30 cal bullet so in a sense it should penetrate deeper with the same energy.

However the .30 cal bullet has more energy... is it enough to overcome the higher sectional density at 600 yards? probably yes.

Fact of the matter is the .260 is better at ranges of say 700+ depending on bullet choices and velocity. It holds its energy better but starts of with less compared to the .308.

It simply takes a certain amount of distance in yards before the higher BC 6.5 bullets can catch up to the .308 bullets and overtake them in energy due to them being initially lighter launched at relatively the same velocity.

In terms of drop and wind the 6.5 bullets start ahead and forever will remain ahead of the .30 cal bullets.

 

[Michael Eichele]

In terms of drop and wind the 6.5 bullets start ahead and forever will remain ahead of the .30 cal bullets.

With match bullets yes. With hunting bullets, not so sure. The 140 AB has a BC of .490 The 180 AB is .507. Heavier hunting bullets with higher BC's in the 308's. Albiet 264 match bullets have the 308 match bullets beat.

I will concede to the fact that a 140/264 bullet will have a greater SD than the 180/308.

Lets bump this up a notch or two.

200 AB/301 SD vs 140 AB/287 SD at 1K

308/200 AB at 1K

Velocity = 1331
Energy = 787
Drop = 332
Wind (10 MPH) = 83


264/140 AB at 1K

Velocity = 1326
Energy = 547
Drop = 294
Wind (10 MPH) = 90

At the 600 yard mark the differences are about the same. The 264 will have 10" less drop yet 2 more inches of wind. The 264 will have 100 FPS more but just under 200 FPE less.

Again my point here isnt to say the 308 is better, just that it can hold its own against ANY other caliber based on the 308 case.

Another quality the 308 has over the 260 is more burn area inside the barrel. Equal length for equal length, the 308 will launch the same weight of bullet faster than the smaller bores. This is how we get heavier bullets in the 308 up to the same speed and even faster for the really small bores making up for some of that BC loss. It takes a 30.33" .264 barrel to equal the burn area of a 26" 308 barrel.

 

[Porter]

Thanks for all the great info everyone. lightbulb
So from what I have seen the 260 may provide a competitive edge @ 1K but not necessarily enough to say that it will beat the 308 hands down. Are there any rounds out there that still have the same recoil (or close to it) as the 308 but have superior ballistics?

As far as the 260 goes, since it retains its energy better out past 700y, should it be considered a better "Elk" round out past that range than the 308?

Now here is question I had about ammo, but first here is the quote that led me to this question..."You don't need a gun that can shoot .1" groups at 100 yards to be competitive at 1000 yards. Long VLD bullets often do not shine until 300yds since they may not fully stabilize inside 100 yards."

What are long VDL bullets and what are some examples of them? Why do they not fully stabilize till 300y?