Plastic tipped bullets. Soldering iron test. ELDX is indeed improved...

[KYpatriot]

I'm not 100% sure its entirety air friction. I dug bullets out of backstops a couple minutes after firing and they've been blistering hot. And I have very heat insensitive hands. I'm sure a lot of the heat is from firing. Regardless, it's hard to prove either way.

Well, I meant in the plastic tip. The rest of the bullet can obviously handle a lot of heat.
There is the tremendous friction on the bearing surface...engraving force measures in the hundreds of pounds, sliding down the barrel at 3000+ fps, has to be a lot of barrel frictional heat there in the bearing surface. In any case, if they are measuring 100 fps velocity loss compared to the new bullet, the new bullet is better ballistically speaking. If it groups as well as the amax, it will be a winner, especially if it has better terminal performance.

I wonder if they will they put the new tip on the amax, or just discontinue them?

 

[Michael Eichele]

Well, I meant in the plastic tip. The rest of the bullet can obviously handle a lot of heat.
There is the tremendous friction on the bearing surface...engraving force measures in the hundreds of pounds, sliding down the barrel at 3000+ fps, has to be a lot of barrel frictional heat there in the bearing surface. In any case, if they are measuring 100 fps velocity loss compared to the new bullet, the new bullet is better ballistically speaking. If it groups as well as the amax, it will be a winner, especially if it has better terminal performance.

I wonder if they will they put the new tip on the amax, or just discontinue them?

True, but my thoughts were that the heat could transfer from the bullet to the tip.

 

[cowboy]

True, but my thoughts were that the heat could transfer from the bullet to the tip.

. Not only could but would.

 

[Michael Eichele]

. Not only could but would.

...

 

[KYpatriot]

A significant amount of heat will conduct from the bearing surface to the tip in the thousandth of a second it takes to exit the barrel?

Or the roughly one second it takes to get to a thousand yards?

I weld at temperatures far in excess of anything a bullet sees, and am thankful that heat doesnt conduct nearly that fast.

No need for this to get silly. Maybe Im just too cynical in thinking that the melting tip is just marketing, after all its great and makes everyone wonder about the tips on the current bullets. Personally I think the better bc is likely just the improved shape of the new bullet, but I admit I could be wrong. I was just pointing out it would be relatively easy to definitively prove it in the tunnel, one way or the other.

I dont really care one way or another, I certainly have no skin in the game. I just thought it was an interesting academic question, with a lot of hype and money and speculation etc when it could be easily resolved in a single 2-3 second tunnel run. It would even make better pictures for their ads...

In any case I have nothing against Hornady I have a lot of their stuff.

 

[Buttermilk]

Hornady clearly states in one of their videos that the melted tip deformation was less than the resolution of the camera they were using to try to capture pics of the melted tip. Less than a pixel.

But, according to Hornady, enough to result in a drop of BC by about 10-12%.

 

[Pdvdh]

The giddiness over these bullets is leading to some over-thinking, IMO. I give Hornady the benefit of the doubt based on the information they've provided. Didn't they seat both their old tips and new tips in the identical bullets, and then measure the improved downrange velocity? A simple straightforward test in which the ONLY component changed was the plastic tip on the bullet, and the consequence was an improvement in bullet BC value.

Heat may transfer from the jacket of the bullet to the base of the plastic tip, but that heat will not conduct forward thru the plastic tip it to the leading surface of the plastic tip during the short time in flight. The heating of the leading portion of the plastic tips is most certainly due to the heat of friction against the air at high bullet velocity. This is where the ablation of plastic blunts the tips and degrades bullet BC value.

 

[KYpatriot]

The giddiness over these bullets is leading to some over-thinking, IMO. I give Hornady the benefit of the doubt based on the information they've provided. Didn't they seat both their old tips and new tips in the identical bullets, and then measure the improved downrange velocity? A simple straightforward test in which the ONLY component changed was the plastic tip on the bullet, and the consequence was an improvement in bullet BC value.

Heat may transfer from the jacket of the bullet to the base of the plastic tip, but that heat will not conduct forward thru the plastic tip it to the leading surface of the plastic tip during the short time in flight. The heating of the leading portion of the plastic tips is most certainly due to the heat of friction against the air at high bullet velocity. This is where the ablation of plastic blunts the tips and degrades bullet BC value.

Im not sure what kind of tip tests they did, but I agree that would be a great test to isolate tip performance. In the white paper by Emery he doesnt show a comparison between an original amax, and an original shape amax with the eld tip substituted. The graphs are comparisons with nosler lrabs, so it isn't apples to apples as far as the tips are concerned. I also agree with you about the heat transfer.

Its difficult to capture fired bullets without damaging the tips due to impact , thats why i thought of the wind tunnel, but it would be interesting to see the difference side by side if it could be done with a soft trap of somekind.

Ive seen paint damage on aircraft due to speed, in fact speed limits on the F-15 are heat related...but of course we are talking about much longer time of flight, and they arent made of plastic lol.

 

[Pdvdh]

double post - beyond my control

 

[Pdvdh]

I'm not sure what kind of tip tests they did, but I agree that would be a great test to isolate tip performance.

I'm pretty certain that in reading Hornady's papers that they stated they did conduct this comparison test. And why wouldn't they. No better way to cut to the chase.

 

[mountainman56]

I'm not too concerned with the tips. Pretty sure they will at least match or possibly exceed the performance of others. First 3 shots with the 200 ELD today out of my ultra mag was exceptional. Tried 3 different bullets, the 190 ABLR and the 215 Berger as well as the ELD. The ELD won hands down today. This particular rifle really likes the 200 AB's so I will be trying the 200 ELD, 200 grain Accubonds and the 215 Bergers (which did well but not photograph worthy) at 500 yards tomorrow.

I keep trying the 190 ABLR in different rifles but have yet to get on the right track with it.

 

[KYpatriot]

Good shooting mountainman. Not sure id mess with the other bullets given how well that rifle likes the eld...

 

[Michael Eichele]

Mountainman, thanks for the share.

Are you jumping or jamming the ABLRs? So far I have found them happier with jump. I've heard other guys indicate similar things.

 

[mountainman56]

Mountainman, thanks for the share.

Are you jumping or jamming the ABLRs? So far I have found them happier with jump. I've heard other guys indicate similar things.

My research told me to jump them and I've tried over quite a large range up to I believe .080 (away from my book). Have tried them in 2 custom 300 Win mags and my 300 RUM with no joy yet. These 3 rifles all shoot the 200 grain accubonds splendidly.

Went out in a 5 to 12 gusting crosswind today and beat the 500 yard target up with the ELD's. One actually hit an old bullet divot and blew through the 1/2" plate (I thought I'd missed it clean). With the gusting wind I of course had a larger horizontal spread than I'd hoped but a less than 3" vertical is keeping me interested.