Pics of Berger Bullets NOT Performing????

[elkaholic]

As J.E. says, lots of good comments! To me, it all comes down to range (velocity upon impact). I will just say this. A tipped bullet will be more CONSISTENT than anything else! That is not to say it is better for everything. I certainly don't recommend the ones I make and shoot at long range close up on heavy game. They are consistently explosive! Having said that, with the right combination of jacket and core, a tip will initiate the expansion more uniforly than a bullet without one..........rich

 

[Pdvdh]

Re: Meplat trimming and annealing Berger VLD Bullets

The meplat-trimmed and hollow-pointed VLD bullets I shot the caribou with produced a result in the direction I was looking for. I was surprised at how that relatively minor tip modification produced such rapid expansion upon impact on the entry side of the animal. This demonstrated that the size and shape of the tips of the VLDs bears heavily on terminal performance. It also infers that a slight deviation in tips during manufacture of the bullets, such as tips that may be pinched closed during production, could heavily impact terminal performance. I do believe that the very small percentage of closed tips that are produced and shipped from the factory play a role in the small percentage of incidents where the VLDs fail to expand on game. But I also have learned that any bullet designed to expand can also, unexpectedly fail to expand on game. I say this because of my experience with a 150gr Nosler Ballistic Tip on a Dall sheep at 12-13 yards from a .280 RCBS Improved. Bullet entered the middle of the ribs and exited the middle of the ribs on a completely broadside shot. No expansion. The animal was still alive, ill and bedded down 20 minutes later, at which time I killed it with another shot. I then confirmed everything I'm relating here during field dressing and examination. Some are incredulous when they hear of this experience. They can't fathom that a Ballistic Tip could fail to expand at that high velocity impact on an animal the size of a mature deer.

My Ballistic Tip experience is not meant to dismiss 'elkaholic's comment. I do agree that a tipped bullet is the expanding bullet design most apt to ensure terminal expansion on game. These tips (quite a bit larger in diameter than the hollow core in the tip of a VLD) being forced back into a lead core bullet upon impact with game is a reliable initiator of expansion.

Here are a couple links I recently came across and found interesting, from a fellow in New Zealand. One discusses annealing the tips of Berger VLDs to help promote expansion at lower impact velocity than might otherwise occur with the factory bullets. It includes an annealing video tutorial. The author states: "Annealing (softening) is one method of encouraging fragmentation of the VLD, meplat trimming to 70 thou and sacrificing BC for fast clean killing is another method."

Berger VLD annealing tutorial

And here's another video tutorial and discussion on annealing the Hornady SST and Interbond bullets:

SST and Interbond annealing tutorial

Nosler's recent production of their AccuBond Long Range line of bullets is an interesting blend of a tipped, bonded core bullet, with pretty good aerodynamics (BC). Initial reports on performance are sounding pretty good. Certainly an attractive option for those preferring tipped, bonded core bullets for long range hunting.

 

[MontanaRifleman]

A lot of good info and comments here. The collective experience of so many is invaluable and we are lucky to have a place like this to exchange our experiences.

Most/all hunting bullets perform well in the vast majority of experiences. I think I have read isolated cases of failure about every major type of hunting bullet. It happens. Sometimes there's an apparent cause and sometimes not.

There is a lot of wisdom in JE's post, but, on the other hand, if we look at Broz' experience with the 215 hybrids last year, he went 19 for 19 at various ranges and impact velocities. Those are very good odds.

I prefer the non-tipped bullets to the tipped. Which is more reliable for expansion depends on the size and condition of the HP meplat. Both ahev been know not to expand, but IMHO, if the size of the HP meplat is not too small and it is in good shape and free of obstructions, they are more reliable than a tipped bullet.

Now, although the Bergers are an excellent bullet, I don't think they are a perfect bullet. Their explosive nature works great in the chest cavity, but on other than boiler room shots, there may be a lot of meat damage and in some cases, lack of penetration. In my experience, probably 95% of my shots have been the lung shots, so an occasional quartering shot that damages some meat is not a huge deal. My biggest concern would be the bullet failing to pentrate heavy bone in a large elk if that's the only shot I had. That's where the heavier 30 cal and 338 cal bullets make a big diff IMO.

 

[Broz]

That's where the heavier 30 cal and 338 cal bullets make a big diff IMO.

I agree totally.

Good info indeed, all bullets work, some work better than others for certain criteria. I always said know how your bullet works best and use that to your advantage. None work "best" at all distances. It is not possible as far as I am concerned.

The heavies have bailed me out more than once. Reading the 215 thread from last year will reveal at least 2 instances I can think where I showed less than perfect placement. (too far back) But neither elk got up or walked away. This is where the heavies fragmenting off and still have enough for penetration paided off for me.

We got 26" of penetration and that was through the far shoulder of the Bull at 200 yards. I was totally impressed with that. While skinning I was able to insert my 1" wide carpenter tape all the way through the wound channel to what was left of the bullet and a small pile of fragments under the far side hide. I sure wish I had that one on video. It was steep, foggy as heck, snow on the ground, and he came sliding towards us like a toboggan.

Jeff

 

[elkaholic]

A lot of good info and comments here. The collective experience of so many is invaluable and we are lucky to have a place like this to exchange our experiences.

Most/all hunting bullets perform well in the vast majority of experiences. I think I have read isolated cases of failure about every major type of hunting bullet. It happens. Sometimes there's an apparent cause and sometimes not.

There is a lot of wisdom in JE's post, but, on the other hand, if we look at Broz' experience with the 215 hybrids last year, he went 19 for 19 at various ranges and impact velocities. Those are very good odds.

I prefer the non-tipped bullets to the tipped. Which is more reliable for expansion depends on the size and condition of the HP meplat. Both ahev been know not to expand, but IMHO, if the size of the HP meplat is not too small and it is in good shape and free of obstructions, they are more reliable than a tipped bullet.

Now, although the Bergers are an excellent bullet, I don't think they are a perfect bullet. Their explosive nature works great in the chest cavity, but on other than boiler room shots, there may be a lot of meat damage and in some cases, lack of penetration. In my experience, probably 95% of my shots have been the lung shots, so an occasional quartering shot that damages some meat is not a huge deal. My biggest concern would be the bullet failing to pentrate heavy bone in a large elk if that's the only shot I had. That's where the heavier 30 cal and 338 cal bullets make a big diff IMO.

This is one of the reasons that I say a tipped bullet, at really long ranges is more consistent "better", providing you are talking about the same, or similar jacket. In order to insure expansion with the hollow point, the meplat has to be wide enough, and remain open, to work properly. When you have this situation, my sharp pointed tips have a greater b.c. which is a big plus at extreme ranges, not only for the obvious reasons, but also for maintaining the velocity needed to initiate expansion. Again, it comes down to the range and target. I consider the Bergers "better" than what I use for a lot of conditions, but not when you are talking 1000+ yards. Mine just start working well at over 500 yards where a Berger, or similar, will penetrate better and cause far less entry damage than mine closer up.......rich

 

[MontanaRifleman]

This is one of the reasons that I say a tipped bullet, at really long ranges is more consistent "better", providing you are talking about the same, or similar jacket. In order to insure expansion with the hollow point, the meplat has to be wide enough, and remain open, to work properly. When you have this situation, my sharp pointed tips have a greater b.c. which is a big plus at extreme ranges, not only for the obvious reasons, but also for maintaining the velocity needed to initiate expansion. Again, it comes down to the range and target. I consider the Bergers "better" than what I use for a lot of conditions, but not when you are talking 1000+ yards. Mine just start working well at over 500 yards where a Berger, or similar, will penetrate better and cause far less entry damage than mine closer up.......rich

Rich,

If I was going to pick a tipped bullet for hunting it would be like yours. Metal is better than poly and brass is better than aluminum. I've still got a few of yours to send down the pipe as soon as I get the RUM back from nitriding. They are good looking bullets It's true that pointy meplats have a better BC than HP's but when you reach a certain meplat diameter there is very little gain in BC by going to a pointed tip, and Bergers are close to that.

Now I don't have enough personal experience with the various types of bullet at various ranges to make a solid knowledge judgment. So I have to rely mostly on the collective experience of all you guys and others and others and the bullet makers themselves (who are definitely going to try to market their brand)

Gerard Schultz (GS Custom) said once in one of these bullet threads that tips do not facilitate expansion as they are actually an obstruction and that the HP design is the best for reliable expansion. Well that statement isn't completely accurate IMO, but there is some truth to it. Every now and then a tipped bullet fails to expand. And if you have an adequate opening in the meplat, there is no better mechanism to facilitate expansion. If you look at the GS bullets they have a slightly to significantly larger HP than Bergers or CEB's. You will not likely hear of one failing to expand and if you do it will almost certainly not be the bullets fault. The question is how small can you make that opening for better BC and still get reliable expansion? It seems to me the Bergers have got that nailed down pretty good based on overall performance which from what I can tell exceeds 95%, and that could probably be improved if the bullets were properly inspected prior to hunting with them.

Bottom line for me is HP's are the way to go, not that they are vastly superior to tipped bullets, especially ones like yours, but I do believe they are the best overall option. But even if I decided I liked tipped bullets better, it would do me no good until you start mass producing them So till then, I'm drinking the HP kool-aid

 

[elkaholic]

I would agree that "overall" the Berger type is a good option. It is important to know the limits regardless of what you shoot. My most common shots are 900 to up to 1500 if I chose. In this case, I'll take mine every time ....rich

 

[edge]

Rich,

If I was going to pick a tipped bullet for hunting it would be like yours. Metal is better than poly and brass is better than aluminum.

SNIP.

Gerard Schultz (GS Custom) said once in one of these bullet threads that tips do not facilitate expansion as they are actually an obstruction and that the HP design is the best for reliable expansion. Well that statement isn't completely accurate IMO, but there is some truth to it. Every now and then a tipped bullet fails to expand. And if you have an adequate opening in the meplat, there is no better mechanism to facilitate expansion.

SNIP.

POINT #1
IMO, target bullets are hollow point for their inherent accuracy.
Your suggestion that metal is better than poly I might agree if there were a way to insert it perfectly.
Bullet manufacturers take great pains to make uniform jackets as any thickness variation will cause a CG shift as the bullet exits the bore, and I might suggest that anything stuck into the front of a hollow point bullet can't be inserted nearly as concentric as the jacket.
Now if I insert a tip that is out by say 0.0005 would I rather have that be light or heavy, I would suggest that the lighter the better.

POINT #2
On what Gerald said, I would tend to disagree unless we are talking about large hollow points.
At low velocity a 338 SMK hollow piont vs a Hornady .458 HP are obviously completely different animals
IMO, the huge advantage with a tip is that the ( hidden ) hollow point beneath the tip is huge compared to a similar BC HP bullet.
Sitting here at my desk I have two Nosler 30 caliber bullets.
First is a Custom Comp 155 grain and the second is a 150 Accubond.
Accounting for the weight difference they are the same BC .
The meplat is almost exactly the same at around 0.050
The plastic tip in the Accubond ( where it meets the jacket ) is right around 0.150
The AB tip has 9 times the area as the CC tip!
Does this mean it will open up better/faster, I guess there are no guarantees but at long range and at a reduced velocity I think that the tipped bullet of the same size should open easier.

I am not advocating the AB since it may be on the tough side for long range, but a more fragile tipped bullet ,assuming just as accurate, may be a better choice.

IMO, IMO, IMO
edge.

 

[MontanaRifleman]

POINT #1
IMO, target bullets are hollow point for their inherent accuracy.
Your suggestion that metal is better than poly I might agree if there were a way to insert it perfectly.
Bullet manufacturers take great pains to make uniform jackets as any thickness variation will cause a CG shift as the bullet exits the bore, and I might suggest that anything stuck into the front of a hollow point bullet can't be inserted nearly as concentric as the jacket.
Now if I insert a tip that is out by say 0.0005 would I rather have that be light or heavy, I would suggest that the lighter the better.

POINT #2
On what Gerald said, I would tend to disagree unless we are talking about large hollow points.
At low velocity a 338 SMK hollow piont vs a Hornady .458 HP are obviously completely different animals
IMO, the huge advantage with a tip is that the ( hidden ) hollow point beneath the tip is huge compared to a similar BC HP bullet.
Sitting here at my desk I have two Nosler 30 caliber bullets.
First is a Custom Comp 155 grain and the second is a 150 Accubond.
Accounting for the weight difference they are the same BC .
The meplat is almost exactly the same at around 0.050
The plastic tip in the Accubond ( where it meets the jacket ) is right around 0.150
The AB tip has 9 times the area as the CC tip!
Does this mean it will open up better/faster, I guess there are no guarantees but at long range and at a reduced velocity I think that the tipped bullet of the same size should open easier.

I am not advocating the AB since it may be on the tough side for long range, but a more fragile tipped bullet ,assuming just as accurate, may be a better choice.

IMO, IMO, IMO
edge.

If you want consistency and uniformity, nothing beats a lath turned mono. I've done some weighing and measuring and the jacketed bullets have some variations in them but they're good enough for good accuracy.

BTW, I just put one of Rich's creations in the concentricity gauge and a 230 Berger. Both were about .001 runout. Plenty good enough in my book. They will both make small groups in the right rifle.

In order to make a tip function as an expander you have to cut away part of the bullets nose so you get enough surface area from the tip pushing against the nose of the bullet. When you replace that with poly, you lower the SD of the bullet the BC slightly. Do they work? For the most part yes. But so do the Bergers. The metal tips can be pointed to a fine point and are tougher than the polys and you loose less SD with them.

I have had the Barnes TTSX tips break off when cycled through mag and chamber. I was not impressed with that. No poly tips for me other than the Hornady 53 gr Vmax's that my Vanguard 223 likes.

Gerard (not Gerald BTW) is highly experienced in the knowledge of external and terminal ballistics. He does know what he is talking about but sometimes uses hyperbole to get his point across. Tips are an obstruction to expansion, but not a complete obstruction. If you removed the tip, the bullet would open much more readily and explosively. So tips are in reality a control of expansion.

Yes, when you make the HP meplat smaller it will reduce the expansion characteristic s of the bullet. The charateristics of the jacket and core play a role in that as well. With GS bullets, Gerard uses pure soft copper for a couple of reason, one being better expansion characteristics. You will not find any of his bullets with meplats as small as Bergers or CEB's. He thinks more like JE and It's hard to argue with that philosophy. He would rather sacrifice a little BC for guaranteed results. The vast majority of his bullets are for hunting inside of 500 yards. That said, the Bergers and CEB's seem to perform well as noted with Broz's 19 for 19 record last year. Hard to argue with that as well.

One last thing. A tip is a complicating factor in a simple design. The bullet becomes a more complex structure. The general rule of thumb is when you complicate things the chance for complications increases, such racking a TTSX into the chamber with a broken tip or the tip just fails to do what is expected like in Paul's case.

I'll stick with the Bergers or CEB's and I'll shoot big heavy bullets out of big cartridge rifles to increase the odds, at least for the larger game like elk.

 

[edge]

If you want consistency and uniformity, nothing beats a lath turned mono. I've done some weighing and measuring and the jacketed bullets have some variations in them but they're good enough for good accuracy.

BTW, I just put one of Rich's creations in the concentricity gauge and a 230 Berger. Both were about .001 runout. Plenty good enough in my book. They will both make small groups in the right rifle.

In order to make a tip function as an expander you have to cut away part of the bullets nose so you get enough surface area from the tip pushing against the nose of the bullet. When you replace that with poly, you lower the SD of the bullet the BC slightly. Do they work? For the most part yes. But so do the Bergers. The metal tips can be pointed to a fine point and are tougher than the polys and you loose less SD with them.

SNIP.

" nothing beats a lath turned mono."

Clearly a well produced mono will be concentric, but when velocity degrades I am not so sure they would open as consistently as a tipped bullet.

"In order to make a tip function as an expander you have to cut away part of the bullets nose so you get enough surface area from the tip pushing against the nose of the bullet. When you replace that with poly, you lower the SD of the bullet the BC slightly."

That would depend on the tip style.
For instance a SMK has quite a hollow section before you get to the lead and a tip may actually add SD in some instances.

Since this is LRH IMO, the first criteria is accuracy followed closely by the ability of the bullet to open at a reduced velocity and a small hollow monometal bullet would probably be down on my list.
I am not saying they are a bad choice, probably there are very few bad choices, heck if you could shoot a mono lead bullet fast enough and it would hold its shape that would be almost ideal out at the sub sonic end of a bullets flight

edge.

 

[MontanaRifleman]

" nothing beats a lath turned mono."

Clearly a well produced mono will be concentric, but when velocity degrades I am not so sure they would open as consistently as a tipped bullet.

"In order to make a tip function as an expander you have to cut away part of the bullets nose so you get enough surface area from the tip pushing against the nose of the bullet. When you replace that with poly, you lower the SD of the bullet the BC slightly."

That would depend on the tip style.
For instance a SMK has quite a hollow section before you get to the lead and a tip may actually add SD in some instances.

Since this is LRH IMO, the first criteria is accuracy followed closely by the ability of the bullet to open at a reduced velocity and a small hollow monometal bullet would probably be down on my list.
I am not saying they are a bad choice, probably there are very few bad choices, heck if you could shoot a mono lead bullet fast enough and it would hold its shape that would be almost ideal out at the sub sonic end of a bullets flight

edge.

I do not have a lot of data on the subject, but from reading around, the larger CEB monos have performed quite well at extended ranges.

Here's one thread on that...

http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f19/cutting-edge-bullets-terminal-performance-67985/

1300 yds is a long way.

The smaller monos may require more velocity at the lower end, not sure about that, but I have some 6mm and 6.5 mm that' I'll be testing. Even so, when you get down to 1800 fps with the smaller bullets, you start to loose momentum and energy, so backing off a little for good performance may not be a bad idea.

If you did nothing but insert a tip into the small HP meplat of the SMK, especially a pointy one, I have little doubt that it would act as an obstruction to expansion. The HP design is much better at initiating expansion than a tip, Unless you modify the tip/nose for a much wider meplat to accommodate a larger tip that will generate enough force to initiate expansion. Remove the tip and the expansion will be much more violent and will initiate down to much lower velocities. This is a fact.

The HP cup and core bullets like the Bergers also perform very well down to lower elocities and maybe a little better than the monos. A lot has to do with how the bullet is designed and constructed. Some scoring of the tip can help facilitate the expansion as well.

 

[Pdvdh]

If you did nothing but insert a tip into the small HP meplat of the SMK, especially a pointy one, I have little doubt that it would act as an obstruction to expansion. The HP design is much better at initiating expansion than a tip, Unless you modify the tip/nose for a much wider meplat to accommodate a larger tip that will generate enough force to initiate expansion. Remove the tip and the expansion will be much more violent and will initiate down to much lower velocities. This is a fact.

Tipped bullets do have the tips installed against a much larger meplat, don't they? I'm not aware of any 0.025" diameter tips being marketed on tipped bullets. The tips are larger in diameter to ensure this method of initiating expansion is reliable. Your statement about small tips the size of the opening in the meplat of a VLD type jacketed bullet might be correct. But nobody manufactures tips that small in diameter, to my knowledge.

Any reference material to support this superiority of tipless bullet expansion?

I am doubting the blanket statement that tipless bullets are more reliable initiators of expansion with lead core jacketed bullets, than tipped bullets where the base of the tips in the bullets have tremendously greater area (and force upon impact with the animal) to initiate bullet expansion.

In my own experiences, tipped bullets have been more reliable in initiating expansion than small meplat VLD-type jacketed bullets. The BC of the tipped bullets may not be as high as a tipless bullet, but the expansion on game has proven more reliable.

 

[elkaholic]

Montana and edge have both made some good points. Bottom line is, the tipped bullets I make with a .200" meplat will outperform a hollow point bullet every time when you get out past 1000 yards! I challenge anyone out there to show me a well expanded bullet with a hollow point (meplat) the size of a Berger or sierra at 1200-1300 fps impact, or even 1600' for that matter. The ONLY time a tip MIGHT inhibit expansion would be if the meplat were so small that a tip wouldn't aid with b.c. anyway!.......Rich

 

[MontanaRifleman]

Tipped bullets do have the tips installed against a much larger meplat, don't they? I'm not aware of any 0.025" diameter tips being marketed on tipped bullets. The tips are larger in diameter to ensure this method of initiating expansion is reliable. Your statement about small tips the size of the opening in the meplat of a VLD type jacketed bullet might be correct. But nobody manufactures tips that small in diameter, to my knowledge.

Any reference material to support this superiority of tipless bullet expansion?

I am doubting the blanket statement that tipless bullets are more reliable initiators of expansion with lead core jacketed bullets, than tipped bullets where the base of the tips in the bullets have tremendously greater area (and force upon impact with the animal) to initiate bullet expansion.

In my own experiences, tipped bullets have been more reliable in initiating expansion than small meplat VLD-type jacketed bullets. The BC of the tipped bullets may not be as high as a tipless bullet, but the expansion on game has proven more reliable.

Paul, I agree with you for the most part. My statement about the small tip was in answer to this...

That would depend on the tip style.
For instance a SMK has quite a hollow section before you get to the lead and a tip may actually add SD in some instances.

That statement is just not true, if implying that the tip would aid in expasion which is what I believe his point is. If it was, all the SMK's and Bergers would have these tiny tips to help ensure expansion for hunting application.

I might be able to find some data on the HP vs tip expansion but I don't need to. It's just a fact of physics. You take a tipped AB or BT bullet and remove the tip, expansion at close range and high velocity will be more explosive and at extended range the tipless AB will expand at lower velocities than the tipped bullet. Just a fact of life.

That said the larger tips may or may not be better expanders than the HP's depending on size, design and construction of the HP.

If you go back and read my earlier posts, I don't make a definitive statement that small HP's open better than large tips. I do point out that the Berger HP's seem to have a very high track record as evidenced by Broz' experiences last year. I also mentioned that failure of small HP's can probably also be traced to deformed or plugged HP's.

Bottom line for me is, I like the simplicity of the HP's and they are my preference for a hunting bullet, specifically the Bergers and CEB's