Over annealing?

[QuietTexan]

You guys that have the seaters that can measure seating force what is the lowest seating pressure you have used and did it shoot well?

As Mike said, seating pressure (at least on my K+M force pack) is highly dependent on the inside of the neck. I don't look for a certain number as much as I look for a consistent number across the cases. If anything is drastically high or low, it gets set aside.

You can brush the inside of the neck with a dirty or graphited nylon bore brush, dip the necks or bullets in Imperial dry lube, or leave One Shot spray in the neck after sizing and see a difference on the dial. I haven't found one combination that's more consistent than another yet, that's what I'm hoping the AMP press will show on the trace.

Anybody got an explanation?

You didn't really heat them to red, it was more of a habanero tangerine with a slight rose tinge to the flame color. So you're all safe!

In seriousness though, overheating the neck might result in a loose bullet or if it's really terrible a split neck, but that's about it. The real risk you're taking is if the body of the case gets too hot and you lose a case head. If the ones you shot showed any types of pressure signs (hard bolt lift, clickers, or swollen body) I'd trash them even though they shot fine one.

Over-annealing is certainly the worst condition, and can even be dangerous, as pointed out above. Over-annealing has two aspects: over-annealing of the case neck only, and any annealing of the lower half of the case. There is no particular danger to over-annealing the case necks, which is the usual result of standing the brass in water and heating the necks with a torch. All that will happen is that your accuracy will not improve, or it may become worse, and the cases may seem to be a little more sticky during extraction. Case life will be improved because the necks are soft--too soft. However, you will conclude that annealing is not what it is cracked-up to be, and may even be a waste of time.


Any annealing whatsoever of the cartridge base is over-annealing and is dangerous. This area of the brass must retain the properties it had when it left the factory. If it is made the least bit softer, let alone "dead" soft, the stage is set for another shooter's nightmare. At the very least, you may get a whiff of hot gas directed toward your face. At the worst, you can be seriously injured as your gun behaves more like a hand grenade than a firearm.

Cartridge brass which has been annealed over its entire length will exhibit signs of excessive pressure even with moderate and reduced loads. Indeed, cases in this condition are subjected to excessive pressures. Any pressure is excessive. Head separation, incipient head separation, stuck or sticky cases, blown primers, swollen cases, swollen case heads, enlarged primer pockets (I mean REALLY enlarged), and just about every other sign of excessive pressure imaginable can occur with cases which have been annealed over their entire length.

The Art and Science of Annealing

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[Csbc4fun]

The glow is a decent indicator, and without the AMP system to gauge it for us, as good as any...I do the same thing, and also gauge it by the depth of color change on the case...I know, not all case's change color the same, or at all....but the Lapua I anneal have a "band" that is approximately 3/16" down on the case body (6mm Dasher). I do not subscribe to the 750° tempilac method, as I don't believe that 750° for a micro second give the results needed . rsbhunter

Much of my career has been machining welding and heat treating power plant piping and pressure vessels. I was around a lot of smart people in doing this work. (Not me). I also do not have the reference material at my fingertips to back up my understanding. But here goes…

Over heat treating changes the grain structure and reduces the strengthening properties of a material. Annealing is a combination of time and temperature. 750 degrees F. is the temperature that anneals brass when soaked at 750 for one hour. Since we only want the neck and shoulder this would also heat up the bases and remove the hardness/strength that we do not want to change.

I have reviewed the technical formula for annealing brass and a good temperatur/time is 1025 degree for one or two seconds (can't recall which). When brass is heated in a dark room and first starts to be visible as a dull orange it is about 1025 degrees. So what works for Me is adjust my process so that I see a dull orange for a few seconds and done, thats it.

If I want better than that I will buy an AMP! Proceed at your own risk.

 

[WildRose]

If you watch the Cortina video again, you will see that the cases he heated for 20 seconds did not have any neck tension, as he states anything over 10 seconds (I thought it was 15 sec) had 0 neck tension....but the biggest fear I have is heat migration to the case head. Over annealing the neck/ mouth causes low/no tension.....heating the head area can cause catastrophic case failure. There is such a broad definition of "annealing" on the forums that it covers "relaxing" the brass, to actual "grain realignment". I have gone from flame annealing, to a DIY induction annealer as I get much more repetitive results....but everybody has their own methods, and alot of them work...rsbhunter

That's why I anneal with them sitting in water if I'm doing a bunch and tip them over to cool.

A little more work with the torch that way but I haven't screwed any up yet.

 

[ajkellerusmc]

This is such an over visited issue, watch butterbean on his utube video anneal his brass. I was an aircraft mechanic for 30 years and we annealed steel, brass and a few other metals so we could easily work them into different shapes. use a torch and get the red glow and you are done. or buy the induction annealer and it figures it out for you. Im tird of this topic.

 

[6pakzak]

This is such an over visited issue, watch butterbean on his utube video anneal his brass. I was an aircraft mechanic for 30 years and we annealed steel, brass and a few other metals so we could easily work them into different shapes. use a torch and get the red glow and you are done. or buy the induction annealer and it figures it out for you. Im tird of this topic.

Well I wanted to know why my brass wasn't ruined from it turning red when everyone, almost everyone said this is the case and if your tired of a topic why are you reading and responding, just move on that's what I do, don't let it bother you.

 

[WildRose]

Well I wanted to know why my brass wasn't ruined from it turning red when everyone, almost everyone said this is the case and if your tired of a topic why are you reading and responding, just move on that's what I do, don't let it bother you.

How long it stays red is the biggest issue.

 

[WildRose]

This is such an over visited issue, watch butterbean on his utube video anneal his brass. I was an aircraft mechanic for 30 years and we annealed steel, brass and a few other metals so we could easily work them into different shapes. use a torch and get the red glow and you are done. or buy the induction annealer and it figures it out for you. Im tird of this topic.

Then skip past it to the next one if you have nothing constructive or entertaining to add.

 

[6pakzak]

Should it be a strawberry red or more of a scarlet?

 

[6pakzak]

Wait a second, I thought it was supposed to be orange!

 

[biff's reloading]

I dont know... I've annealed the hell out of lots of brass, and never had an issue. Bump it in a collet die to .002 and seat the bullet. Its very difficult to stop the annealing process at a repeatable level other than dead brass, which is the goal of annealing. To make it all the same again, plus renew ductility. Read this article.
https://bisonballistics.com/articles/the-science-of-cartridge-brass-annealing

Annealed is annealed. The instant you allow the molecules a chance to move, they snap right back to form. Theres no scientific term "over-annealed". There is "oxidized". and If you kept it too hot for long enough, the grain size would be high, and eventually cause some dissemination of the metals.

unless you are burning holes in your brass with the oxy/acetylene torch, 2 passes through a die and itll be work hardened back up again.

In reality, the problem isnt the metallurgy of the neck, but that you annealed too far down the case. You cant get that back because the lower Half of the case doesn't get worked.

I anneal With a hot torch. I point it at the case lengthwise instead of at the side of the neck, with the tip of the flame at the edge of the case mouth. 3 seconds and The mouth starts to dull, 4-5 seconds and the neck is done. Drop it in water. I use the "distilled" water from the dehumidifier.

 

[WildRose]

Wait a second, I thought it was supposed to be orange!

It is, red is getting too hot. Just a slight glow of orange and you've done all the good you're going to do.

Think of that reddish orange color on an Indian Peach, that's what you want to see and only for a couple of seconds.

 

[6pakzak]

I dont know... I've annealed the hell out of lots of brass, and never had an issue. Bump it in a collet die to .002 and seat the bullet. Its very difficult to stop the annealing process at a repeatable level other than dead brass, which is the goal of annealing. To make it all the same again, plus renew ductility. Read this article. https://bisonballistics.com/articles/the-science-of-cartridge-brass-annealing Annealed is annealed. The instant you allow the molecules a chance to move, they snap right back in form. Theres no scientific term "over-annealed". There is "oxidized", and If you kept it too hot for long enough, the grain size would be high, but 2 passes through a die and itll be work hardened back up again. In reality, the problem isnt the metallurgy of the neck, but that you annealed too far down the case. You cant get that back because the lower Half of the case doesn't get worked. [/QUOTE

It is, red is getting too hot. Just a slight glow of orange and you've done all the good you're going to do. Think of that reddish orange color on an Indian Peach, that's what you want to see and only for a couple of seconds.

It is, red is getting too hot. Just a slight glow of orange and you've done all the good you're going to do.

Think of that reddish orange color on an Indian Peach, that's what you want to see and only for a couple of seconds.

I know, that was a joke, I guess not a good one, my point was I don't think it's ruined if it turns red, the neck not the whole case

 

[Another Casual]

The window for "annealed" seems to be pretty wide. I'm in the dull red glow crowd. I tested all the "methods" and only found consistent shoulder setback there. You'll want to tweak your old load after you start annealing as the neck tension is different than work hardened brass. Only time I've over annealed was on a piece I accidentally sent through a few times. Base was fine, but the neck was quite soft. You'd have to really torch it to get it that soft in one go.

 

[QuietTexan]

The window for "annealed" seems to be pretty wide. I'm in the dull red glow crowd. I tested all the "methods" and only found consistent shoulder setback there.

Sorry to be that guy that brings up AMP, but I'm not here to say they're better, promise. To me the core of what their research showed (and why IMO their recommendation to use flame annealing as an alternative isn't just lip service) is because they're trying to work on consistency, never do they state that flame doesn't provide a similar "full anneal" like induction also does. Their own AZTEC codes vary somewhat but that's ok, because as you said it's a window, not a narrow specific point. They're saying that you get more consistent bump by getting to the full anneal point every time, and their marketing shtick is using induction ensures you get all the way there every time easier/faster/more consistently compared to alternatives.

Flame people in the hotter/redder crowd get there every time also. It's an easy process that people overcomplicate because unless you cook it to the point it crumples you're pretty much always fine with the neck. Enter the @ButterBean YouTube video, because it really is that straightforward.

(Disclaimer: I voted for induction with my wallet, ultimately I felt like I needed to have an electric machine since I load in my house. Flame might be great but I moved out of my garage and into the AC for a reason. Texas is hot, y'all, and my wife would kill me for literally playing with fire in the house.)

AMP counters salt bath annealing by stating it's partial and not complete by their standards. But to several people here that's the point of using salt bath - to not get to a completely annealed state. So each process works by different standards, because the end goal is a pretty wide range.

At the end of the day if the case head is fine, the case should still be useable.

Should it be a strawberry red or more of a scarlet?

Vermilion maybe? Scarlet seems a bit bright. Try printing out a color chart and holding it next to the case as you heat it. I use the 3AAA battery LED headlamp from Creedmoor Sports (a bargain at $49.95) that has a neutral 5k white tone and a calibrated red chart to confirm the exact timing in the flame: