Broz
Well-Known Member
I have seen a primer change cut group size in half or better. But I would only change one component at a time.
Jeff
Jeff
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new custom cant get to shoot
- Thread starter Foster_65
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rscott5028
Well-Known Member
I always use match primers because I don't want to compromise quality/consistency to save a few pennies.
As for Large Rifle Vs Magnum primers, there are some general rules of thumb.
Most say you should use Magnum primers when...
- using ball powders
- large powder charge (>60g)
- cold weather
Even across manufacturers of Large Rifle or Magnum primers, some are known to be "hotter" than others. So, they can have notable impact on your accuracy depending on what your rifle likes.
There are so many variables you can change with load workup that I usually stick with one primer Fed GM215M for my magnum rifles and CCI BR2 for my other rifles. Fed 210M is fine. But, I got a large batch of CCI's and have stuck with them.
If you search this forum and google, you'll find lots of information.
Each rifle/load is unique. So, there are exceptions.
-- richard
As for Large Rifle Vs Magnum primers, there are some general rules of thumb.
Most say you should use Magnum primers when...
- using ball powders
- large powder charge (>60g)
- cold weather
Even across manufacturers of Large Rifle or Magnum primers, some are known to be "hotter" than others. So, they can have notable impact on your accuracy depending on what your rifle likes.
There are so many variables you can change with load workup that I usually stick with one primer Fed GM215M for my magnum rifles and CCI BR2 for my other rifles. Fed 210M is fine. But, I got a large batch of CCI's and have stuck with them.
If you search this forum and google, you'll find lots of information.
Each rifle/load is unique. So, there are exceptions.
-- richard
squirrelduster
Well-Known Member
Primers make a huge difference in the short fat cases.
I tried the magnum primers and they didn't work very well in my 7WSM. I had problems with the Remington 9 1/2 primers also. Went to the CCI BR2 and everything seemed to settle down. I was getting a lot of fliers with the hot primers.
I would expect that since you are using RE17 you will also see variations at different temperatures. I had a problem with my 300 win mag shooting RE22, when it was hot weather it was all over the place.
You should be able to get the Bergers to shoot good with a pretty big jump so get your load straightened out best you can and the work on the seating depth. I would bet you can find a length that fits in your mag. You have better odds jumping them than most other bullets.
Keep us posted with your progress.
I tried the magnum primers and they didn't work very well in my 7WSM. I had problems with the Remington 9 1/2 primers also. Went to the CCI BR2 and everything seemed to settle down. I was getting a lot of fliers with the hot primers.
I would expect that since you are using RE17 you will also see variations at different temperatures. I had a problem with my 300 win mag shooting RE22, when it was hot weather it was all over the place.
You should be able to get the Bergers to shoot good with a pretty big jump so get your load straightened out best you can and the work on the seating depth. I would bet you can find a length that fits in your mag. You have better odds jumping them than most other bullets.
Keep us posted with your progress.
yobuck
Well-Known Member
i think m.e. from alaska nailed it.
as i see it, you dont seem willing to accept what might be the cause. was a friend involved in the build?
you gave the smith a short action and it should have been chambered accordingly. if he had problems with that he should have told you up front. he should also have advised you on action truing etc.
lots of things could be causing your problem or contributing to it.
id be taking that gun to somebody i was sure of for an opinion.
at the very least one possibility could be ruled out.
as i see it, you dont seem willing to accept what might be the cause. was a friend involved in the build?
you gave the smith a short action and it should have been chambered accordingly. if he had problems with that he should have told you up front. he should also have advised you on action truing etc.
lots of things could be causing your problem or contributing to it.
id be taking that gun to somebody i was sure of for an opinion.
at the very least one possibility could be ruled out.
rscott5028
Well-Known Member
What's done is done.
The good news is still the fact that you have a single shot load that shoots accurately.
Do the mag well modification that Jim See recommended. If you aren't sure how to get it done, I'm certain he can do it for you.
You're basically out the extra shipping cost. But, you would've had to pay for materials and installation anyway. So, while you could've gone with a long action or a short throat, it sounds like you'll end up with the best option using the new mag well regardless of how you got there.
And, don't overlook the scope base alignment issue as pointed out by some.
Simply changing bullets and/or playing with seating depths may get you where you need to be. But, at the expense of barrel life and cost of components. So, the mag well is probably a safer bet at this point if you truly have a load that shoots one ragged hole and if it wasn't just a one group fluke.
The load workup need not be complete guesswork either. Apparently the Berger will shoot fine in this rifle when seated near the lands.
But, I would also strongly consider the primer/powder recommendations that others have suggested. ..particularly as pertains to H4350 or H4831sc as they are considered to be consistent performers.
Then, start with a methodical load workup and do not cut corners.
Let us know how it turns out.
-- richard
The good news is still the fact that you have a single shot load that shoots accurately.
Do the mag well modification that Jim See recommended. If you aren't sure how to get it done, I'm certain he can do it for you.
You're basically out the extra shipping cost. But, you would've had to pay for materials and installation anyway. So, while you could've gone with a long action or a short throat, it sounds like you'll end up with the best option using the new mag well regardless of how you got there.
And, don't overlook the scope base alignment issue as pointed out by some.
Simply changing bullets and/or playing with seating depths may get you where you need to be. But, at the expense of barrel life and cost of components. So, the mag well is probably a safer bet at this point if you truly have a load that shoots one ragged hole and if it wasn't just a one group fluke.
The load workup need not be complete guesswork either. Apparently the Berger will shoot fine in this rifle when seated near the lands.
But, I would also strongly consider the primer/powder recommendations that others have suggested. ..particularly as pertains to H4350 or H4831sc as they are considered to be consistent performers.
Then, start with a methodical load workup and do not cut corners.
Let us know how it turns out.
-- richard
well the rl 17 was a load i loaded earlier this winter. i have read how the rl powders are sensitive and this is why i switche dto h 1000 and have been using this since. like i said i did have 2 4 shot groups at about .75 moa and that was by far the best. this was with 69 grains. i started from 67 and went up to 70 in one grain increments. i am thinking i should try a couple loads at maybe 68.7 and 69.3 and see what happens. then if that doesnt have a whole of effect i will steat the bullets a bit deeper and see what happens. i switched to the Hodgdon extremr powders for the consistance reasons. looks like ill have to buy another box of bergers and some H4831
elkaholic
Well-Known Member
My 6.5 will not shoot the Bergers unless they are jammd into the lands about .010". It makes a BIG difference in group size. Just close, does not work in my rifle and I know of several others that are the same. Give it a try....Rich
cummins cowboy
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Nov 21, 2010
- Messages
- 361
here is the real story that no one on the internet seems to tell, for whatever reason not all customs turn out the way you would want. I personally don't think alot of customs shoot that much better or even as well as many factory guns. to expect a sporter weight barrel to shoot 1/2 moa in all conditions is asking for too much IMO. could it turn out to shoot that well, yeah, but to guarantee it thats a tall order with thin barrel and a magnum case as being other factors.
I don't think a gunsmith could consistently put out rifles that shoot as well as most tikkas do on average. if they had to make a rifle of similar weight. the other thing is be careful of people bragging about how their gun shoots, yeah it may produce a good group, but what happens if they shot that great group at 80 degrees, how great is the group at 40 degrees??
I once had a remington 700 270 win that used to shoot decent groups of about 3/4 moa the for whatever reason I could not get it too shoot anymore, had the crown redid, glass bedded, scope changed nothing, but it would shoot winchester power points right at MOA, having never owned a custom I had the barrel changed to a #5 krieger guess what NOTHING changed in fact power points were still about all it would shoot, it did shoot a federal 140 grain accubond load to slightly over MOA. I was pretty disappointed to say the least. finally I ordered another #5 barrel and sent the gun to greg tannel he worked over the action and it came back shooting in the .3's with one of the first loads I tried.
bottom line is many times a factory gun will outshoot a custom. don't believe that everyones gun will shoot .5moa on any give day.
I don't think a gunsmith could consistently put out rifles that shoot as well as most tikkas do on average. if they had to make a rifle of similar weight. the other thing is be careful of people bragging about how their gun shoots, yeah it may produce a good group, but what happens if they shot that great group at 80 degrees, how great is the group at 40 degrees??
I once had a remington 700 270 win that used to shoot decent groups of about 3/4 moa the for whatever reason I could not get it too shoot anymore, had the crown redid, glass bedded, scope changed nothing, but it would shoot winchester power points right at MOA, having never owned a custom I had the barrel changed to a #5 krieger guess what NOTHING changed in fact power points were still about all it would shoot, it did shoot a federal 140 grain accubond load to slightly over MOA. I was pretty disappointed to say the least. finally I ordered another #5 barrel and sent the gun to greg tannel he worked over the action and it came back shooting in the .3's with one of the first loads I tried.
bottom line is many times a factory gun will outshoot a custom. don't believe that everyones gun will shoot .5moa on any give day.
cummins
i sort of agree with you. i read alot on this site and you hardly ever here of a custom that doesnt shoot sub moa. maybe i am asking to much and probably am. i guess its a hard to reality to come to when you spend that kinda money on a custom rig. but i am going to stay optimistic and keep trying. whats the worst that could happen, i burn the barrel and have to re barrel it?? yes i will have spent alot of money on components but wth at least i had fun doing it. i can spend a heck of alot of money at to bar in a night to. haha. i guess there is worse stuff to i could spend money on.
i think i have gotten some very good advice on this thread so far and am excited to try them. after this weekend the rifle goes back to wisconsin for my dad to shoot. he is retired and with all there snow, he doesnt have anything better to do, so he can spend more time than i, plus he has a range at his house so it much more easy for him. i will implement what i ahve been told; only change one thing at a time, and see where i get.
thanks to everyone for all the help and if you can think of anything else please chime in. i love any info i can get.
i sort of agree with you. i read alot on this site and you hardly ever here of a custom that doesnt shoot sub moa. maybe i am asking to much and probably am. i guess its a hard to reality to come to when you spend that kinda money on a custom rig. but i am going to stay optimistic and keep trying. whats the worst that could happen, i burn the barrel and have to re barrel it?? yes i will have spent alot of money on components but wth at least i had fun doing it. i can spend a heck of alot of money at to bar in a night to. haha. i guess there is worse stuff to i could spend money on.
i think i have gotten some very good advice on this thread so far and am excited to try them. after this weekend the rifle goes back to wisconsin for my dad to shoot. he is retired and with all there snow, he doesnt have anything better to do, so he can spend more time than i, plus he has a range at his house so it much more easy for him. i will implement what i ahve been told; only change one thing at a time, and see where i get.
thanks to everyone for all the help and if you can think of anything else please chime in. i love any info i can get.
Foster, Dude tell ya what. Load up your ragged hole load at the oal it shot best at.
load at least 30 of them. You or your dad shoot it and confirm it as good to go.
Send your dad to my shop, with rifle, I am in the exact center of Wisconsin. I will inspect the rifle for free. I will measure your money round and if it is a fit for the wyatts magazine box I will instal it for $85 while your Dad waits.
load at least 30 of them. You or your dad shoot it and confirm it as good to go.
Send your dad to my shop, with rifle, I am in the exact center of Wisconsin. I will inspect the rifle for free. I will measure your money round and if it is a fit for the wyatts magazine box I will instal it for $85 while your Dad waits.
rscott5028
Well-Known Member
Jim,
Will that same conversion typically work for a 6.5x284 in a short action for 140's seated out to the lands?
Or, do you really need a long action for a repeater?
Thanks!
Richard
Will that same conversion typically work for a 6.5x284 in a short action for 140's seated out to the lands?
Or, do you really need a long action for a repeater?
Thanks!
Richard
