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<blockquote data-quote="johnlittletree" data-source="post: 1501964" data-attributes="member: 105653"><p>This showed up in my email not resurrecting this thread myself. My apprenticed to me an Automtive Technician in Germany. Got tired of that and when I moved back to the USA I worked for one year and decided I was off to University! My first 4 year degree was in Aviation Technology Material Sciences! I ended up working in automotive world for a long time.</p><p></p><p>So by what voodoo does what the barrel blank is wrapped in matter with regard to cold bore shot accuracy potential? How does the material the blank is wrapped in influence the interior machining dimensions and finish of the bore?</p><p></p><p>Oh before any even tries to claim it makes the barrel stiff in any significant way as compared to a barrel blank of identical exterior dimensions not wrapped in carbon fiber I can tell you that is bunk! If anyone tries to tell you otherwise they are either a liar or a fool. </p><p></p><p>Now could a case be made that such a barrel is stiffer then a blank of the same naked diameter before the barrel is wrapped? Yes an argument could be made for that and that alone. That said I would want to see 3rd party documentation extensive documentation! </p><p></p><p>Then I would want to see again 3rd party documentation showing that the marginal increase in stiffness if their even is can be tightly link as the causative factor in increase accuracy potential on cold bore shots off hand on moving or stationary targets and that given the normal limit of 3-5 rounds in most bolt action hunting rifles that it could affect those shots in a statistically significant way as well! </p><p></p><p>Since fighter planes and stealth aircraft do not use main guns with barrel manufactured in this way were weight is everything that tells you all you need to know. Even in places were weight is not everything and money is no object since tax payers and debt are funding things you still do not see this. No tanks or capital class ships have guns made in this way. Also last I checked no serious military has carbon fiber wrapped barrels in the hands of soldiers not even air born/Para/Speed roping/ air assault troops where weight is always an issue because you are operating aircraft and have no clue when you might be relived and resupplied so ounces and pounds are critical but so is durability and accuracy. Last I checked no snipers in active duty deployments have these either. Sure would be nice on a 50 BMG sniper weapon to shed some weight! </p><p></p><p>I could turn down an ER SHAW barrel and wrap in carbon fiber and it is not going to turn a "Sow's ear into a silk purse!" nothing against ER Shaw either but since they do not pin themselves down on their web site to anything remotely like a hard standard I picked them in this case for this example. So if that carbon wrapped barrel shot really well it would be because the interior finish and machining in general where well done. </p><p></p><p>Keeping in mind that our Military is known to grossly over pay for things and even they do not use this wallet lightener! </p><p></p><p>Now if you building an F1 car and you want it to be insanely light but still be able to hit a wall head on at close to 200 and not shatter the drivers legs then carbon fiber along with cardboard honey combs and such can be a fantastic combo. If you are building an aircraft where every gram impacts performance and you need an insanely light weight wing that is also very rigid again fantastic. I even like it's use in stocks when it makes sense in spite of the insane price point for carbon fiber. </p><p></p><p>I think Jesse James said it best one time on one of the shows he was a regular on " Welding more and more metal onto something is stupid in an attempt to make it stronger or more rigid that is "Redneck Engineering!". The point he was getting at is that you want to use any material smartly to get the most strength or rigidity etc... for the least amount of additional weight. </p><p></p><p>The final nail in the coffin is that BR guys do not regularly use this sort of barrel do they? How about F-Class is it the norm? What about Silhouette where you need to actually hold the rifle and shoot with no bench and no bipod? Surely the New Ultra Light Arms uses these right along with all you super expensive OEM hunting rifles? I know I am sure those high end African Custom Shops are using this as the norm right? </p><p></p><p>A pencil thin barrel if machined well and beded in the best way for it can have a cold bore shot accuracy every bit as good as a 12.9 pound barrel. Your heavier barrels only matter as they heat up the weight of a barrel has nothing to do with it cold bore shot potential. Now if you need to shoot 10, 20, 30 rounds in short time frame then added mass helps a lot with heat. Since this is a "Long Range Hunting" web sight my mind goes to hunting right away unless someone says it for F-Class or BR or P-Dogs from a bench etc....Long range hunting is either a bean field sort of situation or a mountain-valley situation most time. I have never seen a man take a 500m-1000m shot in dense brush in heavy woods! LOL Those pesky tree's get in the way! </p><p></p><p>If you look at the shooting sports you can quickly see what sort of gear is the norm and what brands seem to be in the winner circle the most. No I am not saying you need to go to competition levels on everything but you can rest assured that the favored boutique barrel makers would not be doing as much business as they do if people where not getting results consistently! </p><p></p><p>Assuming we are talking about well machined gear and a good barrel it is not tough to consistently get 1/2-1/4 MOA from a reworked WWII Mauser, premium barrel and hand loads. The nut working the lathe and end mill is super important!</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="johnlittletree, post: 1501964, member: 105653"] This showed up in my email not resurrecting this thread myself. My apprenticed to me an Automtive Technician in Germany. Got tired of that and when I moved back to the USA I worked for one year and decided I was off to University! My first 4 year degree was in Aviation Technology Material Sciences! I ended up working in automotive world for a long time. So by what voodoo does what the barrel blank is wrapped in matter with regard to cold bore shot accuracy potential? How does the material the blank is wrapped in influence the interior machining dimensions and finish of the bore? Oh before any even tries to claim it makes the barrel stiff in any significant way as compared to a barrel blank of identical exterior dimensions not wrapped in carbon fiber I can tell you that is bunk! If anyone tries to tell you otherwise they are either a liar or a fool. Now could a case be made that such a barrel is stiffer then a blank of the same naked diameter before the barrel is wrapped? Yes an argument could be made for that and that alone. That said I would want to see 3rd party documentation extensive documentation! Then I would want to see again 3rd party documentation showing that the marginal increase in stiffness if their even is can be tightly link as the causative factor in increase accuracy potential on cold bore shots off hand on moving or stationary targets and that given the normal limit of 3-5 rounds in most bolt action hunting rifles that it could affect those shots in a statistically significant way as well! Since fighter planes and stealth aircraft do not use main guns with barrel manufactured in this way were weight is everything that tells you all you need to know. Even in places were weight is not everything and money is no object since tax payers and debt are funding things you still do not see this. No tanks or capital class ships have guns made in this way. Also last I checked no serious military has carbon fiber wrapped barrels in the hands of soldiers not even air born/Para/Speed roping/ air assault troops where weight is always an issue because you are operating aircraft and have no clue when you might be relived and resupplied so ounces and pounds are critical but so is durability and accuracy. Last I checked no snipers in active duty deployments have these either. Sure would be nice on a 50 BMG sniper weapon to shed some weight! I could turn down an ER SHAW barrel and wrap in carbon fiber and it is not going to turn a "Sow's ear into a silk purse!" nothing against ER Shaw either but since they do not pin themselves down on their web site to anything remotely like a hard standard I picked them in this case for this example. So if that carbon wrapped barrel shot really well it would be because the interior finish and machining in general where well done. Keeping in mind that our Military is known to grossly over pay for things and even they do not use this wallet lightener! Now if you building an F1 car and you want it to be insanely light but still be able to hit a wall head on at close to 200 and not shatter the drivers legs then carbon fiber along with cardboard honey combs and such can be a fantastic combo. If you are building an aircraft where every gram impacts performance and you need an insanely light weight wing that is also very rigid again fantastic. I even like it's use in stocks when it makes sense in spite of the insane price point for carbon fiber. I think Jesse James said it best one time on one of the shows he was a regular on " Welding more and more metal onto something is stupid in an attempt to make it stronger or more rigid that is "Redneck Engineering!". The point he was getting at is that you want to use any material smartly to get the most strength or rigidity etc... for the least amount of additional weight. The final nail in the coffin is that BR guys do not regularly use this sort of barrel do they? How about F-Class is it the norm? What about Silhouette where you need to actually hold the rifle and shoot with no bench and no bipod? Surely the New Ultra Light Arms uses these right along with all you super expensive OEM hunting rifles? I know I am sure those high end African Custom Shops are using this as the norm right? A pencil thin barrel if machined well and beded in the best way for it can have a cold bore shot accuracy every bit as good as a 12.9 pound barrel. Your heavier barrels only matter as they heat up the weight of a barrel has nothing to do with it cold bore shot potential. Now if you need to shoot 10, 20, 30 rounds in short time frame then added mass helps a lot with heat. Since this is a "Long Range Hunting" web sight my mind goes to hunting right away unless someone says it for F-Class or BR or P-Dogs from a bench etc....Long range hunting is either a bean field sort of situation or a mountain-valley situation most time. I have never seen a man take a 500m-1000m shot in dense brush in heavy woods! LOL Those pesky tree's get in the way! If you look at the shooting sports you can quickly see what sort of gear is the norm and what brands seem to be in the winner circle the most. No I am not saying you need to go to competition levels on everything but you can rest assured that the favored boutique barrel makers would not be doing as much business as they do if people where not getting results consistently! Assuming we are talking about well machined gear and a good barrel it is not tough to consistently get 1/2-1/4 MOA from a reworked WWII Mauser, premium barrel and hand loads. The nut working the lathe and end mill is super important! [/QUOTE]
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