My issues with the Berger method…..

[bamban]

Most common theory is that you are timing the bullet exiting the barrel in a more forgiving state of barrel harmonics. This is also I believe why certain rifles tend to shoot better at a certain velocity window.

Thank you.

 

[CRNA]

I have found that 0.0 or a slight jam seems to be where it's at.

 

[mulie]

So Stgraves260 did you use seating depth or neck tension to remove the vertical out of the 41.0 grain powder charge??

 

[Taylorbok]

Seating is not tuning, as primer swapping is not tuning. Instead, they are items prerequisite to tuning.
That is, they are 'coarse' in their affects to any load.
You tune with powder, and neck tension, and/or a barrel tuner. These are your 'fine' adjustments.
With anything calibrated you adjust coarse first, then fine. Never the other way around.

I use QuickLoad so wildcats are not a cause of surprise really. But the only thing desired to know about a powder load to test coarse seating, or primers, is that I'm NOT in a powder node, beginning nor end. Worst possible is best. I want to see great big shifts from -just what I'm testing, and nothing else.
When I'm breaking in the barrel, or piddling around, I can use an ~80% SAAMI Max load and confirm that it sucks.
A useful beginning for me.

Pretty much everyone considers seating depth part of the tuning process. Which it affects the accuracy of the load/ round so it is part of the tune.
seating depth can be adjusted finely or coarse as can powder charge, from my experience even small adjustments in either can greatly affect group size.

I am actually working up a wildcat/improved cartridge now so when it all comes together I will try your method of finding a seating depth while fire forming brass and see if it holds together afterwards. I mean I should be able to get close with a coarse node but no way to dial it down.

I do agree with you guys that fine seating can eat up components and a 1/4 moa group isn't required for hunting. I like to shoot and test and tune anyways so it's all part of it for me.

 

[Ckleeves]

Bullet Jump Research: Executive Summary & Load Development Tips

This is the last post in a series of articles focused on bullet jump research that has been conduct...

precisionrifleblog.com

Really depends on what your doing with your rifle. F class, prs, hunting?

Mark Gordon's method works very well I have had great results with it. It's been eye opening a few times when I thought I had seating nailed and did it just to confirm what I thought and I was way out of the forgiving node. It's time consuming without a camera and driving 600 yards to mark off every shot but it works.

 

[Tuffcountry]

Berger Method LINK


I have some small issues with the Berger method. It is contrary to my experiences and others test results.

So, Berger says to test VLD's from 0's through about 0.15". They recommend a method where one uses 0.030" or 0.040" increments. Many people get good results, but not everybod.

Long range benchrest folks were testing from jam to maybe 0.030" max and finding some great VLD loads.

The EC's interview with Lou Murdica suggests nodes to be about 0.006 - 0.012" wide.….as well as many other accuracy sources.

To add to that, I noticed using 0.03" increments that sometimes I found a node and sometimes I did not. I have modified my technique to start at my longest reasonable length and shorten 0.005"-0.010" increments. This has worked pretty well for me.

To me, it seems like it would be hard to find your true node with any consistency using the Berger method. I think you could shoot a lot of bullets looking for a node and still only find a 2nd or 3rd node.

What are your thoughts/experience on this?

I started with max mag length and worked shorter

 

[Eddiejoe12]

Berger Method LINK


I have some small issues with the Berger method. It is contrary to my experiences and others test results.

So, Berger says to test VLD's from 0's through about 0.15". They recommend a method where one uses 0.030" or 0.040" increments. Many people get good results, but not everybod.

Long range benchrest folks were testing from jam to maybe 0.030" max and finding some great VLD loads.

The EC's interview with Lou Murdica suggests nodes to be about 0.006 - 0.012" wide.….as well as many other accuracy sources.

To add to that, I noticed using 0.03" increments that sometimes I found a node and sometimes I did not. I have modified my technique to start at my longest reasonable length and shorten 0.005"-0.010" increments. This has worked pretty well for me.

To me, it seems like it would be hard to find your true node with any consistency using the Berger method. I think you could shoot a lot of bullets looking for a node and still only find a 2nd or 3rd node.

What are your thoughts/experience on this?

I thing Berger is selling bullets so their method supports their goal. Your process makes sense to me.

 

[Zen Archery]

Every barrel spits differently. How many barrels/calibers have you run to come up with evaluation?

 

[QuietTexan]

It works, there are all sorts of nodes out there.

Ain't that the truth. It's not like there's one objectively correct answer to the question of what seating depth to use, it's one giant "it depends" followed by a "do what works for you."

 

[ajkellerusmc]

I have found Bergers to be within .0015" BTO across 100. If you want to talk about an ELD-X, then yes, .007 variation is definitely probable.

can you explain BTO across 100. ? some of us are not educated

 

[SSG Graybush]

Ive used Berger method with great results everytime. I don't think jumping a node is the right verbiage since adjusting the seating depth is finding the sweat spot for your bullet. .005 can maybe affect your node but I don't think so, maybe I wrong about that? Most bullets will have a .003-.005 error in ogive so each one isn't exactly the same. A competitive shooter might have higher standards and be able to tell the difference with .003-5 adjustments but I never have. Almost all Berger's I shoot shoot good at .020 off.

You are wrong about that, imo. 6 thou nodes are the norm. Some bigger, some smaller. Dont use the smaller. And you may jump over using 20-30 thou increments.
I test at 3 thou increments and find both ends and load the middle. Because being on the edge of the node leads to inconsistency from things like environment and variants in charge weight. Falling out of the node causes flyers/larger groups.
I jumped over nodes before so I do 3 thou increments and with Bergers I test 55 to 70 thou jump 1st. Then depending on a bullets variance( not Bergers so much) in bbto/ojive start at 5 or 10 thou off lands.
And the variance in bbto/cbto can be overcome to get consistent jump by short seating bullets, measure, separate into lots by cbto, and seat the rest of the way. I get a variance < 2 thou this way. A good micrometer seating die helps a lot in this. Redding with the vld stem works well for me. The Barnes 112 gr MB's shoot great but their bbto/ojive variance can cause a variance up to 8 thou in cbto, that alone can/does cause flyers. The 105/109 gr Bergers were out of stock so I had to try the 112 gr MB's for my 6 XC. I had to do this to get to .4ish moa, and a ES of 15.
Sub half and a ES of 15 or less is my goal for any LR shooting rifle.

 

[QuietTexan]

can you explain BTO across 100. ? some of us are not educated

Variance in bullet BTO of less than 0.0015" in a 100 count box of bullets.

Berger is typically pretty good about minimizing variance in any particular box and lot. Hornady got around this with the A-Tips by packing bullets sequentially off a press so there don't have the large variance they're somewhat known for.

I sorted a box of Sierras last week on a whim, there were two distinct BTOs in the box. 80% of the bullets were within +/-0.001" of one of the two BTO lengths in the box. Probably a case of two presses running and the output being mixed.

 

[cjuve]

Variance in bullet BTO of less than 0.0015" in a 100 count box of bullets.

Berger is typically pretty good about minimizing variance in any particular box and lot. Hornady got around this with the A-Tips by packing bullets sequentially off a press so there don't have the large variance they're somewhat known for.

I sorted a box of Sierras last week on a whim, there were two distinct BTOs in the box. 80% of the bullets were within +/-0.001" of one of the two BTO lengths in the box. Probably a case of two presses running and the output being mixed.

I just sorted some 107's last night and found the exact same thing, there were 2 very distinct BTO lengths. I have a few rounds loaded up to see how the variance impacts group size.

 

[D$tring]

I start with .020 to .030 jump and usually find a great load there. Only once, with a fierce 28nos, so I have to increase the jump. Found it to be in the sweet spot at .195. I would say pick a jump .025 or there about, and start your load work up there. Only go longer or shorter if you can't find a load that works.