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Maximum lethal range-175 elite hunter
- Thread starter chetraguse
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Yes, he did. As he noted, he oversimplified it. I hope @jraulsten put his engineer back on, but he is correct it is not worth arguing, I do not blame him one bit.
I agreed with Feenix on the bullet. Around that 800-900 range is my limit. I've taken one elk with it at just over 700 yards. The bullet worked flawlessly just on the crease. Bull kinda raised his front end for a sec then kinda did the staggering OS thing then fell over about 5 secs later doing the running on his side quiver for a bit. It was out of a 7mm SAUM MV of 2,995 fps.
It's my bullet of choice for deer also. Easy bullet to reload for sure. Nodes are long and quick.
It's my bullet of choice for deer also. Easy bullet to reload for sure. Nodes are long and quick.
I can't help but watch this.....Gets funnier all time 
.
Who would have guessed all those states have it wrong listing minimum energy requirements on certain animals. They should be listing minimum velocity requirements!
.Who would have guessed all those states have it wrong listing minimum energy requirements on certain animals. They should be listing minimum velocity requirements!
xsn10s
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- Mar 7, 2016
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- 7,648
Learn something new everyday!I can't help but watch this.....Gets funnier all time
Who would have guessed all those states have it wrong listing minimum energy requirements on certain animals. They should be listing minimum velocity requirements!
Lenny Foffa
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- Mar 6, 2017
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WOW!!! The engineers are hard at work on this one. Ok , Ill be the punching bag for this thread. Just my opinions boys . I have a preconceived ideas about the velocity of the bullet I think I want / need to use. on the game I am hunting, at the range the guides tell me you will most likely be shooting. EX: So ,if its Mule deer in Wyoming, and the range will 300 to possibly 400 yards, I want a 150 Grn .ABLR out of my .270 Weatherby Mag, that starts out at 3000/3050 fps, that will deliver 1600 to 1800 Ft Lbs. of energy between 400 and 500 yards, at that altitude. I like that a lot . So for me, weather the POI is 300 , or 400 or even 500 yards, that bullet will deliver more than enough energy to that mule deer at that anticipated range. The velocity at 400 to 500 yards, will be enough velocity, 2300fps /2200 fps, to expand that bullet reliably and destroy and disrupt Heart and Lungs. I would hunt with high confidence. Now if the game is Mountain Sheep, and the expected range is going to be 800 to 1000 yards, then I feel that rifle /caliber is not ideal, Using ENERGY and VELOCITY as a Guide or Gauge , I would want to select a different Rifle/ Caliber /Bullet combination for Mountain sheep at 800-to-1000-yard range. Something that would deliver enough energy to effectively kill that animal that at the Long Range. My Mule Deer combination would only deliver 1100 pounds of energy at that 800-yard range. At 1800 FPS, not sure how it would expand that bullet. Just not good enough for me to hunt with confidence, and I think there are better Caliber / Bullet combos for that particular Extreme LR hunting application. Just my humble opinion. Each of us must decide how much velocity and energy we can reliably deliver to the target ,with the correct bullet , and at what range. and is it enough to kill effectively? Let the bashing begin!!!
Same as Einstein's Theory. Instead of E=MCsquared, it is E=MVsquared/450,800. See, now you are doing physics without realizing it. I always thought that Einstein just copied the earlier formula and substituted C (speed of light) for the 460,800. See, hunters knew all that before Einstein.
"MY" unwritten rule is 1500 FT-LBS and 1800 FPS (min velocity for the bullet to expand effectively) for elk at POI. So for my self-imposed threshold, the effective range is 900 yards; 1513 FT-LBS/1973 FPS. However, there is no substitute for proper shot placement. Sometimes, even if it meets all the requirements to harvest an elk effectively, there will be instances that they expire differently. Good luck, and happy safe hunting.
Ed
This is kind of what I was looking for just a basic idea on what you guys think.
Ed
This is kind of what I was looking for just a basic idea on what you guys think.
I just pay attention to the MV, and then impact velocity. I try not to sneak below 2000 fps unless I'm REALLY familiar with the bullet and its construction. For coyote loads, I've even loaded up 2 rounds of whatever bullet with almost a full case of trail boss, and shot a carcass hanging from a fence at 10y or so. Then I look at the velocity of that slow one and use it against some of the other shots I've taken and use that as a data point to determine where I'll get adequate expansion. Hits are great, but no expansion pretty much guarantees a runner. Anchoring with well placed shots and meaningful tissue disruption from fragmentation is fur.
How the bullet is constructed, where it hits the animal, and how fast it was going upon impact is ultimately what matters most.
The max lethal range depends on all those things. The starting velocity also matters, as does the bullet's BC which determines how much velocity is retained as its traveling down range.
How the bullet is constructed and how it is designed to perform terminally (its mechanisms for such) will be the main factor in determining max range.
In general, softer constructed bullets with a high BC will give you the absolute most range due to requiring less impact velocity, and thus force exerted back unto the bullet, in order to expand sufficiently and still produce adequate hydraulic force and thus adequate wounding for a quick and clean kill.
There can be trade offs to this though, since we can't always predict not guarantee our shots will only be long range. So we need a bullet that can perform properly at close range and higher impact velocities too. The best way to achieve that is to run a heavy for caliber softer constructed bullet with a high BC and at medium MVs. The high BC will ensure you still have good range, yet the higher bullet mass and only medium MV means close range shots work out well too.
As far as energy…. Energy, in regards to the calculated kinetic energy of a bullet at a particular velocity, is only a potential. It's only a potential in regards to it depends on how the bullet behaves upon impact and how it thus transfers that energy and puts it to work. Not all bullets put the energy to work or transfer it all. A bullet that punches or pencils right through, for example, did nothing in regards to putting energy to work and didn't transfer hardly any of it. This is why there's confusion and two sides to this argument on whether energy matters or is relevant. Yes, it is relevant, but bullet construction and impact velocity do matter more in the grand scheme.
So to expand upon the subject of energy specifically, energy goes to work by converting to force. Not all bullets turn their energy into force, or at least not a lot of force. Some are much better than others and need less energy to begin with. How they convert energy to force is highly dependent upon their construction and the mechanics of how they behave terminally.
This is where the terms energy dump and energy transfer come in. As a bullet converts its energy into force, it rapidly loses momentum. If the bullet loses all its momentum from producing a huge amount of force, it typically doesn't exit. Typically, the higher the rate of momentum lost, the more force is produced and more wounding occurs. That said, you still want to balance it all out so that it occurs within the chest cavity and does the most damage to the vitals. You don't want the bullet to lose all its momentum on or near the surface, for example.
Also, the more momentum the bullet still has, the more force it's still producing. If it produces a ton of force, but simply doesn't lose it all at a rate higher than the speed its traveling, it'll still exit, which we see still with certain soft constructed lead core bullets in certain scenarios.
Ultimately, knowing how the particular bullet you're wanting to use coverts energy into force is what you should focus on and will be much more helpful than going with just a basic rule of thumb on minimum energy. There are many bullets out there that will produce excellent wounding with well under 1000ft-lbs of energy. That's because they're highly efficient at converting energy into force. Conversely, there are many bullets out there that are not efficient at converting energy into force or don't convert very much of it into force.
Frangible (soft constructed) bullets are very efficient and effective at converting energy into force. Getting that proper balance though is crucial, and achieved by having sufficient starting mass and not placing the shot in an area where the amount of impact resistance is too much for the impact velocity. But an adequate amount of mass at the start can really help with that, as does adjusting shot placement for close range shots. A well-constructed and properly selected frangible mono can be very effective as well, to be fair to those types.
The max lethal range depends on all those things. The starting velocity also matters, as does the bullet's BC which determines how much velocity is retained as its traveling down range.
How the bullet is constructed and how it is designed to perform terminally (its mechanisms for such) will be the main factor in determining max range.
In general, softer constructed bullets with a high BC will give you the absolute most range due to requiring less impact velocity, and thus force exerted back unto the bullet, in order to expand sufficiently and still produce adequate hydraulic force and thus adequate wounding for a quick and clean kill.
There can be trade offs to this though, since we can't always predict not guarantee our shots will only be long range. So we need a bullet that can perform properly at close range and higher impact velocities too. The best way to achieve that is to run a heavy for caliber softer constructed bullet with a high BC and at medium MVs. The high BC will ensure you still have good range, yet the higher bullet mass and only medium MV means close range shots work out well too.
As far as energy…. Energy, in regards to the calculated kinetic energy of a bullet at a particular velocity, is only a potential. It's only a potential in regards to it depends on how the bullet behaves upon impact and how it thus transfers that energy and puts it to work. Not all bullets put the energy to work or transfer it all. A bullet that punches or pencils right through, for example, did nothing in regards to putting energy to work and didn't transfer hardly any of it. This is why there's confusion and two sides to this argument on whether energy matters or is relevant. Yes, it is relevant, but bullet construction and impact velocity do matter more in the grand scheme.
So to expand upon the subject of energy specifically, energy goes to work by converting to force. Not all bullets turn their energy into force, or at least not a lot of force. Some are much better than others and need less energy to begin with. How they convert energy to force is highly dependent upon their construction and the mechanics of how they behave terminally.
This is where the terms energy dump and energy transfer come in. As a bullet converts its energy into force, it rapidly loses momentum. If the bullet loses all its momentum from producing a huge amount of force, it typically doesn't exit. Typically, the higher the rate of momentum lost, the more force is produced and more wounding occurs. That said, you still want to balance it all out so that it occurs within the chest cavity and does the most damage to the vitals. You don't want the bullet to lose all its momentum on or near the surface, for example.
Also, the more momentum the bullet still has, the more force it's still producing. If it produces a ton of force, but simply doesn't lose it all at a rate higher than the speed its traveling, it'll still exit, which we see still with certain soft constructed lead core bullets in certain scenarios.
Ultimately, knowing how the particular bullet you're wanting to use coverts energy into force is what you should focus on and will be much more helpful than going with just a basic rule of thumb on minimum energy. There are many bullets out there that will produce excellent wounding with well under 1000ft-lbs of energy. That's because they're highly efficient at converting energy into force. Conversely, there are many bullets out there that are not efficient at converting energy into force or don't convert very much of it into force.
Frangible (soft constructed) bullets are very efficient and effective at converting energy into force. Getting that proper balance though is crucial, and achieved by having sufficient starting mass and not placing the shot in an area where the amount of impact resistance is too much for the impact velocity. But an adequate amount of mass at the start can really help with that, as does adjusting shot placement for close range shots. A well-constructed and properly selected frangible mono can be very effective as well, to be fair to those types.
The difference between potential energy (at rest) and kinetic energy (in motion) is often misconstrued.
The physics behind it.
In its simplistic form (sorry for the corny videos, but it gets the point across).
Agreed! There is no need to complicate it unnecessarily.
The physics behind it.
In its simplistic form (sorry for the corny videos, but it gets the point across).
Agreed! There is no need to complicate it unnecessarily.
