Maximum lethal range-175 elite hunter

[Reelamin]

Generally speaking - a bullet is considered to have a "maximum lethal range" at the farthest distance that the bullet will still expand on the animal being hunted. So, muzzle velocity plays a big role in that equation and so does the structure of what is being hit. Naturally, this assumes a good hit in the vitals.

Just my 2 cents.

It is all about velocity on target period!!

 

[Reelamin]

There's a video of Wayne Van Zwoll taking an elk at 600 yards with a 6.5 Creedmoor and I think a 129 SST. The energy must have been around 1100 ft/ lbs range. I'm not going to criticize him because he's more knowledgable than me. But I'd rather have far more energy and a bigger caliber and bullet. I'm in the 1500 ft/lbs camp. I might go 1400 ft/lbs with a proven bullet and load. YMMV

I know Wayne personally for the last 30 years and I specifically asked him about that situation as it was the exact opposite of what he does/did and expected for elk hunting. He said he had confidence in the gun to shoot that far accurately on a perfect broadside shot. I questioned the cartridge and he chuckled a little and said he wants to continue writing and doing what he has been doing so staying relevant matters.

 

[xsn10s]

I know Wayne personally for the last 30 years and I specifically asked him about that situation as it was the exact opposite of what he does/did and expected for elk hunting. He said he had confidence in the gun to shoot that far accurately on a perfect broadside shot. I questioned the cartridge and he chuckled a little and said he wants to continue writing and doing what he has been doing so staying relevant matters.

Yeah in the video he said he felt confident in the rifle/ ammo and was shooting it well. The bullet he chose should expand well at that distance/ velocity. Like I said he's got more experience than I do so I'm not going to ding him. Did you know Chub Eastman too?

 

[FEENIX]

Velocity is part of the energy, kinetic energy, equation.

Yep! That is part of the reason it is often misunderstood. As far as I know, Norma is the first to measure the KE on their gel tests.

 

[Coldfinger]

Just curious on what you guys think of for determining maximum lethal range. I'm using the 175 berger elite hunter bullet. What is the best factor to look at for down range performance? Is it the impact velocity or energy and how much of either is sufficient for elk?

None of it really matters if you can't hit an object say the size of a cantaloupe on an elk or fist on a deer. My last elk hunt I had a 600 yard maximum with my 338 edge. Not because of the cartridge limitations but I could only practice at that max range. I was confident that I could make a longer shot based on my custom turrets but not confident I would miss what I wanted to if there was wind if that makes any sense. Luckily we found a bedded bull at 596 and I hit within an inch of where I aimed. To most guys on this forum that's a chip shot.

 

[Reelamin]

Yeah in the video he said he felt confident in the rifle/ ammo and was shooting it well. The bullet he chose should expand well at that distance/ velocity. Like I said he's got more experience than I do so I'm not going to ding him. Did you know Chub Eastman too?

No on Chub my father in law knew Mike growing up, and they were gone before I ever came into the area.

 

[MagnumManiac]

I can say emphatically that energy does not kill animals…the energy transfer happens so quickly it is practically inconceivable. This is why objects hit with bullets do no fall over.
A bullets job is to expand, disrupt tissue and cause massive blood loss, bullets that fragment do different trauma than bullets that expand and stay together. So, what IS important is bullet construction that matches the IMPACT velocity, energy is neither here nor there, honestly.
When Nosler introduced the ABLR, I just had to try them out at ranges beyond their 1300fps lower limit, 6.5 and 30 cal heavies did not expand as low as the lighter bullets, yet they were still below the 1300fps velocity…so pick your bullets for what ranges you intend hunting and don't worry about energy too much…bullets going slower still kill, but aren't always reliable due to construction.

Cheers.

 

[FEENIX]

Just curious on what you guys think of for determining maximum lethal range. I'm using the 175 berger elite hunter bullet. What is the best factor to look at for down range performance? Is it the impact velocity or energy and how much of either is sufficient for elk?

The Berger 175 is an excellent choice of bullet for LRH/S.



As you can see, you have received varying responses; I do not know what chambering you have, but let's assume the numbers generated on the chart below.

"MY" unwritten rule is 1500 FT-LBS and 1800 FPS (min velocity for the bullet to expand effectively) for elk at POI. So for my self-imposed threshold, the effective range is 900 yards; 1513 FT-LBS/1973 FPS. However, there is no substitute for proper shot placement. Sometimes, even if it meets all the requirements to harvest an elk effectively, there will be instances that they expire differently. Good luck, and happy safe hunting.

Ed

 

[xsn10s]

I want to say the Berger 175 EH is one of Lance's go to bullets in his 280 AI. Maybe he'll chime in.

 

[iiiNelson]

Seems like BOTH velocity AND energy matter.

You need enough velocity to initiate expansion and enough energy to push the expanded bullet through the animal… given proper bullet construction for the distances for the intended hunting use case.

 

[FEENIX]

Seems like BOTH velocity AND energy matter.

You need enough velocity to initiate expansion and enough energy to push the expanded bullet through the animal… given proper bullet construction for the distances for the intended hunting use case.

LOL, yes, as indicated by the formula provided by @xsn10s in #15! The equation's right side comprises the necessary attributes to generate the KE.

 

[xsn10s]

LOL, yes, as indicated by the formula provided by @xsn10s in #15! The equation's right side comprises the necessary attributes to generate the KE.

Yup and I missed that @jraulsten posted it in post #3. Couple that with bullet construction for predictable terminal performance.

 

[MagnumManiac]

Seems like BOTH velocity AND energy matter.

You need enough velocity to initiate expansion and enough energy to push the expanded bullet through the animal… given proper bullet construction for the distances for the intended hunting use case.

You are confusing momentum for energy, they are not the same. Energy in this regard is not exerting a pushing force, sectional density tries to ascertain what this is doing, but it doesn't take into account the bullets construction or how wide the expansion is. You can take 3 identical weight bullets in ANY calibre and it is very likely they will not perform the same. If one detonates on the hide, all the energy has been used up without penetration, energy doesn't move the bullet, only it's momentum does, you stop it and the bullet stops. If the second penetrates through the ribs and destroys the lungs but stops under the hide, it has lost enough momentum to stop while dumping its energy. If the third bullet expands, passes through the chest and destroys the lungs but exits, it has energy and momentum left over, it did the same job without expending all it's energy…do you see the difference? Without velocity, and momentum derived from that velocity, energy doesn't get the bullet to always work as intended.
I'll leave that for you to ponder.

Cheers.

 

[xsn10s]

Energy is just the relationship of mass and velocity. So add that with bullet construction for predicting your results. Sure you could use a 6.5 CM or even a 22-250. Heck in the Depression people used 22LR all the time, it doesn't mean it would be my cartridge of choice.