Mark 4 4.5x14

Ultramag45

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Forks, Wa
Looking at getting a Leupold Mark 4 4.5x 14LR/T.. they make 2 of them.. the LR/T Target.. and the LR/T M1... i know 1 is 40 mm and the other 50mm.. I am going to put a Kenton industries turret on it... WHich one would be the best.. and what is the real difference between the two as far as turrets. the scope will be on a 338RUM... Any Help would be good..
 
The only differences between the two are turrets and objective diameter. The LR/T Target has the target turrets which have dust covers and of slightly different design. Where as the LR/T M1 has the M1 turrets that don't use dust covers. I have the LR/T Target and find the turrets perfectly usable. As for optics well it's a Leupold so they are good but not great.
 
Just want to beable to range, dial , and shoot, not really into packing around the Pocket PC and equationsNot going to be shooting at animals over 750 yds. Where I hunt the Wind is always howling...... I am a little stubburn I guess... Also there has been so many threads on here about BDC andTactical ends of things, people are getting a littlewound up over which is the best way to go.... I HUNT!!!! Period..... To me the kenton Industries Turrets are simple.. Rang , Dial scope , and shoot..... I dont know how the custom Leupold turrets are compared to them, with their BDC ANYONE have any info. on them...
 
Just want to beable to range, dial , and shoot, not really into packing around the Pocket PC and equationsNot going to be shooting at animals over 750 yds. Where I hunt the Wind is always howling...... I am a little stubburn I guess... Also there has been so many threads on here about BDC andTactical ends of things, people are getting a littlewound up over which is the best way to go.... I HUNT!!!! Period..... To me the kenton Industries Turrets are simple.. Rang , Dial scope , and shoot..... I dont know how the custom Leupold turrets are compared to them, with their BDC ANYONE have any info. on them...


A ballistic range card and dialing turrets is the best way to go, not the only way but the best. I have been the other route and know its limits. Simply range and dail how is that not just as simple?

The BDC knobs will work out to your 750 yard example at the elevation where you are located. Now what happens if you decide to go eles where to hunt and have a 7000" f elevation change? Care to make a wager on how effective the BDC knobs are now?
 
A ballistic range card and dialing turrets is the best way to go, not the only way but the best. I have been the other route and know its limits. Simply range and dail how is that not just as simple?

The BDC knobs will work out to your 750 yard example at the elevation where you are located. Now what happens if you decide to go eles where to hunt and have a 7000" f elevation change? Care to make a wager on how effective the BDC knobs are now?


I agree 100%. Just use the turrets that come with the scope. BDC turrets are handy but not flexible enough.
 
A BDC will work fine for you out to 750 with a 338 RUM if you accept that it will only be valid for one altitude, temp and load. So if you have a good load with known drops, hunt in the same place every year or just don't mind buying a new one if you need to, they can work well.

Another suggestion is to do a "military" style from Kenton, where it still has MOA just like the standard turret. That way if anything changes you can simply ignore the BDC and dial just like it isn't even there with whatever new data you have.

Personally I'd go with the M1's over the target style for Leupold. BTW, does your scope have a Mildot or TMR reticle?
 
even if i am going with the kenton Industries turret..


BDC turrets are a marketing gimmick. I hate to say that it's marketing for the masses that don't know better, but it kinda is, especially for longer range shooting. The marketing has been done very well and now it seems like every scope manufacturer out there is making BDC reticles or BDC turrets. Like Jon A says, they are only good for one load, for one rifle at one altitude and set of env. conditions if you are shooting very far at all. Same thing goes for BDC reticles.

Just dive in and learn about ballistics and spin knobs for the given conditions. With as much as would be spent on Kenton knobs, you could instead get Exbal, a cheap PDA off Ebay, a cheap wind/temp meter, etc. and be well on your way using the M1 knobs that come with the scope. Either Leup knob will work. I'd prefer the M1, but that's just me. Certainly no reason to change it out for a Kenton. If you do, let me know first and I'll offer to buy the M1's off you, OK? Good luck in your decision.
 
There is a difference between the two scopes other than the size of the OBJ and that is the erector housing is bigger. Will this have an effect when mounted to a big cal rifle? Most likely not.

We have Leupold makes us a 4.5-14x40mm with the M1 turret and the TMR reticle and it works great!

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Mike @ CSGW
 
BDC turrets are a marketing gimmick. I hate to say that it's marketing for the masses that don't know better, but it kinda is, especially for longer range shooting. The marketing has been done very well and now it seems like every scope manufacturer out there is making BDC reticles or BDC turrets.
That's putting it a bit strong. While some companies' marketing has gone too far and glossing over their limitations doesn't do anybody any good, that's the fault of the companies, not the turrets themselves. Anything that not only works, but works exceedingly well when properly used is not a gimmick.

The limitations depend upon what you're shooting and how far. The higher BC bullet you shoot and the faster you shoot it, the farther you can go before you need to worry about day to day weather changes. A .308 or similar shooting a medium BC bullet will need real time weather measurements and dope corrections at ranges where an Ultramag shooting a high BC bullet can completely ignore them. General rules of thumb for the former only apply to the latter at much longer ranges. Many or even most here would consider 750 "medium range," especially for a 338 RUM. In fact, I'd say to the contrary that suggesting a PDA is needed for this application is silly.

Most of my shooting, with different rifles, different scopes, different loads, different locations, different times of the year, etc, is dialed the standard way directly off the laptop or from a freshly printed drop chart for that day. Yes, it works.

But when I nail down the variables and make up a BDC turret, there's no doubt I'm much, much, faster, less error prone and simply more effective to 900-1000 yds, especially when under time pressure. Inevitably when I eventually take it off for whatever reason, having to go find a number in another chart somewhere bugs me. For use at 1000+ sure (for a big gun, closer for smaller), but when it's not needed having to go to another chart or run a number on a computer adds no accuracy, adds no value; only time and inconvenience.

Again, I'm just saying don't blame the tool when it's used incorrectly, it's not the tool's fault. But any tool that works so well when used properly is not a gimmick. In fact, I can't think of a single good reason not to use one in the manor I do. It adds a great deal for the 90% of likely situations, and having the MOA/MIL numbers on as well means it won't take anything away if the 10% comes up.

Though as I've said many times before, one shouldn't try and use them as a substitute for the simple skills and knowledge of ballistics/trajectory and dialing to compensate. One should needs to learn these things. If you don't understand how your tool works, you're likely to misuse it one day--you won't understand what the limitations are and why they are what they are.
 
They are not a gimmick for you, Jon, as we all know that you are very knowledgeable about LRH and are developing your BDC turret 'stickers' based on solid information about where you will be hunting and the conditions there, measured bullet BC, measured bullet MV, etc. But for alot of folks, they end up being a gimmick, because they are not used appropriately. Many folks will sight in their, for instance, Leupold B and C reticle at the suggested range and then be perfectly willing, to shoot an animal at the ranges that Leupold says their reticle markings should be on. I've seen it several times with folks that just do not want to 'dive in' and learn ballistics. This, of course, is not what Leupold reccomends. They want you to go and test your load for the various distances and develop a drop chart, just as you do. However, from my personal experience watching how a couple of dedicated hunters deal with this, many will not put the work into developing a drop chart, but yet will be willing to use the hash marks for longer ranges they might not shoot at if they didn't have that reticle or that BDC turret.

So, I apologize. I should say that they are not a gimmick if you understand the concept behind them and do the homework to understand how they work and their limitations. I just contend that many may not do their homework and then believe they've got a long range rifle.

Jon
 
That's putting it a bit strong. While some companies' marketing has gone too far and glossing over their limitations doesn't do anybody any good, that's the fault of the companies, not the turrets themselves. Anything that not only works, but works exceedingly well when properly used is not a gimmick.

The limitations depend upon what you're shooting and how far. The higher BC bullet you shoot and the faster you shoot it, the farther you can go before you need to worry about day to day weather changes. A .308 or similar shooting a medium BC bullet will need real time weather measurements and dope corrections at ranges where an Ultramag shooting a high BC bullet can completely ignore them. General rules of thumb for the former only apply to the latter at much longer ranges. Many or even most here would consider 750 "medium range," especially for a 338 RUM. In fact, I'd say to the contrary that suggesting a PDA is needed for this application is silly.

Most of my shooting, with different rifles, different scopes, different loads, different locations, different times of the year, etc, is dialed the standard way directly off the laptop or from a freshly printed drop chart for that day. Yes, it works.

But when I nail down the variables and make up a BDC turret, there's no doubt I'm much, much, faster, less error prone and simply more effective to 900-1000 yds, especially when under time pressure. Inevitably when I eventually take it off for whatever reason, having to go find a number in another chart somewhere bugs me. For use at 1000+ sure (for a big gun, closer for smaller), but when it's not needed having to go to another chart or run a number on a computer adds no accuracy, adds no value; only time and inconvenience.

Again, I'm just saying don't blame the tool when it's used incorrectly, it's not the tool's fault. But any tool that works so well when used properly is not a gimmick. In fact, I can't think of a single good reason not to use one in the manor I do. It adds a great deal for the 90% of likely situations, and having the MOA/MIL numbers on as well means it won't take anything away if the 10% comes up.

Though as I've said many times before, one shouldn't try and use them as a substitute for the simple skills and knowledge of ballistics/trajectory and dialing to compensate. One should needs to learn these things. If you don't understand how your tool works, you're likely to misuse it one day--you won't understand what the limitations are and why they are what they are.
So I Shold be fine with my 338 Rum out 750 800.. Knowing I have a fantastic load for the gun.. I have shot lots of critters in excess of 450 and 500 with just a BC reticle.. I dont mind having another turret for 7000ft elevation, I have checked out drop charts off the JBM... also define PDA.. thanks
 
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