Longer range group almost as good as short?

huntoregon

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Feb 23, 2014
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Has anyone ever had a gun that would shoot as good or almost as good at longer range as it did at short?

I have been kind of struggling with a load, got one shooting 3/4" at 100 but in the past its shot better. Anyways I loaded a few rounds and set up a target at 500 just to see how it would group and it shot a 1" triangle shaped 3 shot group.

Just curious if anyone else has ever seen similar?
 
Yes I have. Bryan Litz discusses different theories about it in his new book. It's a great read. He also posted a challenge about it on this website. http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f19/applied-ballistics-shoot-thru-target-challenge-144359/

Yes, Bryan invited anyone who was capable of achieving this to a paid trip to prove this possible purely for research . As far as I know no one took the challenge despite a LOT of claims.

To the OP, your results should be repeatable and 5 shots show more statistical average of actual group size. 3 shots groups are more likely to be a fluke chance than 5.
 
Aim small, miss small.

Yes I have.

I agree with Fred.
I think between a good parallax adjustment and the fact when closer, you fight the crosshairs trying to keep them on the mark. And when farther I usually find a natural point of aim at the center of the target and concentrate on trigger control..
 
This is an old phenomenon usually seen with long for caliber bullets, and I recall several old shooting magazine articles written on the subject. It was not uncommon for old 6.5 shooters to see this, and I have seen this with long 6mm's and the 69 to 80 gr .224 bullets.

The theory was the bullet did not truly stabilize, or "go to sleep", and eliminate or greatly reduce the yawing effects from being fired. Another theory was as the bullet slowed to a "sweet spot" for that bullet/load/caliber, it would shoot into smaller MOA groups at, say, 200 to 300 yards or whatever then the 100 yd MOA comparative would predict.

Once we learned we should all be using faster twists and bullets became better then we normally had in the "old days", much of this phenom dissipated. The occurrence of these interesting effects were difficult to always repeat, but they were seen enough to know they existed.

Some theories were based on drag effects and sonic shock waves at the bullet's nose, and there is some evidence to support areas of bullet flight that were more "stable" and less erratic then others. Bullet speeds in and close to the trans-sonic range may display this, and that is the theory behind the usage of "standard or subsonic" velocity 22 LR's at 100 yards vs bullets that start at supersonic and then transverse into sub.

All this is based on several groups and not a fluke 3-5 shot group that never repeated the phenom.

Another interesting idea around this phenom is chance bullet/load uniformity. Even today, a serious BR and LR shooter should weigh his/her bullets, check various dimensions for uniformity, load seating depth and runout, with uniform case length and neck tension, etc, etc. Sometimes, these factors come together for a few chance loads/shots and produce a surprisingly tight group that just happened to be shot at a distant target instead of the usual 100yd sighting. Often, this has led to the experiences we are discussing, and even today, I, and others, are often surprised to weigh a 100 ct box of "target" or "long range" bullets that have unacceptable weight and other variations. Example: a box of 200 grain modern bullets was weighed and the 100 ct was sorted into 6 different weight "groups". The extreme spread was over 3 grains!! and while the majority did fall within .5 grains of each other, any of the 2 to 3 grain variations would not be positive for even 100 yard best groups. Old hunting rifles would never show the difference, but higher end target type rifles and shooters would notice.

Try loading several random bullets/loads with less than perfect hunting bullets into a known sub 1/2 moa rifle and then shoot loads as near perfect as possible at twice the distance. YMMV, but you may discover how this phenom began.

Actually, this is why almost all us older BR shooters were also bullet swagers, for the factory match bullets of the day were not that great. Today is far better, but some brands and lots are better than others.

2 cents
 
Not uncommon at all....as range master at a long range benctrest match 200-300-500 yards I got to see this 100's of times. The rifles are all of the finest quality everything built by the best gunsmiths on the planet for the most part and still it pops up all the time. It all disproves one of shooting greatest galaxies, if not the greatest ones, a rifle shoots 1 inch at 100, 2 inches at 200, 3 at 300 etc, NOT !! Again I go back to the 6.5/284 bench rest quality rifle/equipment/shooters, for whatever reason did it the most/maybe it's just me vs that cartridge and almost to a man the comment used by the shooters was "that's impossible" coming from the line. Bullet stablelization was most offered as the explanation for this.
 
Once, I spoke with a physics friend who was a guru in gyroscope construction and gyroscopic principles, and he favored the idea of decreasing gyroscopic wobble, my words not his, leading to increased stability while traveling in a fluid (air). The basic premise was the increased resistance of the fluid on a slightly wobbling streamlined object forced the object to find the path of least resistance thus decreasing the wobble and becoming more stabilized for a period of time.

This did make sense, for a properly constructed aircraft tends to do the same thing. "Weather veining" is often a term used. Watching slow motion arrows being launched with all the flexing and wobbling then to see the same arrow just yards later makes for a similar argument.
 
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