Locking lugs in the chamber?

[birdiemc]

Was doing some thinking the past couple of days...if you can screw a barrel extension onto an AR barrel then slap an aluminum receiver onto that, what would stop a guy from cutting the locking lugs into the barrel on a double lug bolt action rifle? Same concept right?

 

[cohunt]

Yup already done---remington 710/ 770

 

[Jud96]

The Japanese did this on their "last ditch" Arisaka rifles. They used a cast receiver but locking lugs locked up in the barrel. The Remington 710/770 have pressed in barrels, not threaded, and that's why the utilize lugs locking in the barrel. You could design an action like that, and I'm sure it would be pretty dang strong. Not sure if it's needed when using high quality steel and threads.

 

[J E Custom]

This is one of those things that sound like a good idea, But have proven not to be very accurate. The idea of a barrel extension is good but offers little support if an aluminum action is used with a conventional bolt design.

If you could machine a bolt race way, and internal lug abutments plus the chamber. the barrel shank would be very long and with no room for error. If it didn't shoot well, you would have no option to improve on it.

With the Remington 770 for example, there is no way to adjust the head space, clean up the chamber, change cartridges or any other way to improve it, so you are stuck with what you have.

With the threaded receiver you only have to change the barrel to totally change the cartridge, caliber, twist rate, contour, length, head space, lead angle and many more things rather that change the whole action and barrel.

J E CUSTOM

 

[DJ Fergus]

From what I understand, the new Mauser m18 has locking lugs in the barrel. One of Browning's old bolt actions was done this way also, I believe it was the model before the abolt.

 

[kiwikid]

What you have suggested is fairly common in some of the European countries where the number of rifles they are allowed is restricted. By having one action and say a standard and a magnum bolt it is possible to have several different cartridges and calibres.

Blazer, Sauer plus Schultz and Larsen offer switch barrel rifles. The below photos are a Schultz and Larsen cut rifled barrel machined to fit a 6 lug Sauer 202 action. This one is 6.5x55 Swede but I have 223, 22-250, 25-06 and 6.5-284 barrels as well

The actions are steel and the barrel is held into the receiver by either 2 or 3 cross bolts normally tightened to between 62 and 70 inch lbs.

If I remove the barrel and then reinstall it I find that the POI usually changes only .5 MOA.

 

[birdiemc]

I was thinking it would move the attachment point behind where the bolt face meets the the case instead of directly on top of it, possibly increasing likelihood of accuracy, but I wouldn't think it was make it worse, however what JE says about not having room for improvement if it didnt shoot well would be true.

 

[J E Custom]

Not knocking this system, But it totally locks you in to a very few choices. There are some really good rifles that use the system that Kiwikid mentioned and the reason for them in the countries that limit the number and caliber you can own. I feel if used for these reasons, It is just another form of gun control and prices are what ever they want.

In America, we not only want to make our own choices, we also want to pay what we want to pay. My problem after all of this is the ability to improve the function and accuracy with the system we have.

There are many reasons to chose the type of system you want. I just think that the threaded receiver and barrel make up has many more advantages than the integral
barrel locking lug system does, and you are not locked in to a few cartridges and accuracy.

I have never tried to improve the accuracy on this type of action so I really cant say that It cant be done. It just doesn't Appear to lend it's self to being improved. loading the best ammo appears to be the only way to improve accuracy.

I don't ever remember this set up used in the bench rest world, and we all know if it was better, they would use it. Just like bolt actions dominate the accuracy world over many other types of weapons, that perform very well for there purpose.

Just my opinion

J E CUSTOM

 

[DJ Fergus]

Not knocking this system, But it totally locks you in to a very few choices. There are some really good rifles that use the system that Kiwikid mentioned and the reason for them in the countries that limit the number and caliber you can own. I feel if used for these reasons, It is just another form of gun control and prices are what ever they want.

In America, we not only want to make our own choices, we also want to pay what we want to pay. My problem after all of this is the ability to improve the function and accuracy with the system we have.

There are many reasons to chose the type of system you want. I just think that the threaded receiver and barrel make up has many more advantages than the integral
barrel locking lug system does, and you are not locked in to a few cartridges and accuracy.

I have never tried to improve the accuracy on this type of action so I really cant say that It cant be done. It just doesn't Appear to lend it's self to being improved. loading the best ammo appears to be the only way to improve accuracy.
I don't ever remember this set up used in the bench rest world, and we all know if it was better, they would use it. Just like bolt actions dominate the accuracy world over many other types of weapons, that perform very well for there purpose.

Just my opinion

J E CUSTOM

Very well said J.E.
I appreciate your helpful input to this forum over the years.

 

[birdiemc]

I appreciate the responses, I find myself questioning all the time "is the way we are doing it the best way?" In all walks of life. It gives me something to think about while I'm driving or trying to fall asleep at night.
So far with guns I haven't thought up a new, better way to do anything, that hasn't already been done, but I'm always searching.

 

[kiwikid]

Over the years I have realized that there are certain members on this site whose posts are well worth reading,
J E Custom is one such member.

The only switch barrel rifle that I know of that would be seen at competitions in Europe would be the Schultz and Larsen Tactical.

J E is correct in saying that the cartridge choice is limited and you will never find any of these rifles chambered for any wildcat or AI cartridges other than perhaps a 280 AI. Once the barrel is machined it can't be altered.

Other than bedding the action there really isn't anything that can be done if the rifle doesn't shoot well but luckily all 10 of these rifle I have here will shoot sub .5" groups at 100m. Other than that your only option is replace the barrel which takes about 5 minutes once you get one.

At this stage I can't see anything other than threaded barrels into solid receivers dominating competition shooting events. This is a good thing as it assures us of having first class gunsmiths such as J E Custom among us.

For anyone wanting to see more about the S&L rifles I have added a link. Enjoy.
http://www.greatdanerifles.com/index.html

 

[birdiemc]

[QUOTE="kiwikid, post: 1812270, member: 56094"

For anyone wanting to see more about the S&L rifles I have added a link. Enjoy.
http://www.greatdanerifles.com/index.html[/QUOTE]
This below from their website, have you found this to be the case? I've not heard anybody ever mention micro rifling, and certainly not its ability to prevent copper fouling...all very interesting but curious what your personal experience has shown.
"The bore after lapping is micro rifled. Micro rifling are the very fine longitudinal
grooves left in the surface after lapping. This micro rifling, together with the slight choke in the muzzle helps
prevent copper fouling. The maker says you probably don't have to do a thorough clean until 300 rounds."

 

[J E Custom]

[QUOTE="kiwikid, post: 1812270, member: 56094"

For anyone wanting to see more about the S&L rifles I have added a link. Enjoy.
http://www.greatdanerifles.com/index.html

This below from their website, have you found this to be the case? I've not heard anybody ever mention micro rifling, and certainly not its ability to prevent copper fouling...all very interesting but curious what your personal experience has shown.
"The bore after lapping is micro rifled. Micro rifling are the very fine longitudinal
grooves left in the surface after lapping. This micro rifling, together with the slight choke in the muzzle helps
prevent copper fouling. The maker says you probably don't have to do a thorough clean until 300 rounds."[/QUOTE]


I became interested in Ballard rifling (Micro grove/rifling) many years ago and found it to be very good from an accuracy standpoint but I saw little difference in fouling characteristics In higher velocity cartridges, There did appear to be some improvement with big bore cartridges, but that could just be a results of the slower velocities.

Micro grove/rifling came along before we understood the benefits of lapping and a proper break in so real world experience is limited.

Here is a paper on Micro grove that explains the purpose and use and will give some a better understanding of this type of rifling. It's interesting though that the big navel guns have this type of rifling, so someone though out of the box/norm and decided that In this application it should be better.

https://www.leverguns.com/articles/fryxell/microgrove-barrels.htm

An to anyone that thinks outside the box (Like birdiemc and others including my self) keep doing it, even though someone thinks it is a terrible idea. It could be that break through that changed the gun/shooting world. At least we get to think and debate about it.

J E CUSTOM

 

[kiwikid]

Yes my personal experience is that these barrels copper foul very little, after 40 odd rounds it is not uncommon to see three or four patches of copper in the groves that are less than a 1/4" long in the entire length of the barrel. The owner (Morten) of S&L states not to use solvents in "his barrels", he says just put a couple of patches through the barrel with a good quality gun oil.

Morten also states that the barrels do not need breaking in, just go out and shoot them. Yeah I know that's a big can of worms.

I have looked down about 10 new S&L barrels with my Hawkeye and the finish looks like a highly polished piece of steel that someone has rubbed with 600 grit sand paper once in the direction of the rifling. It is the result of their lapping.

My cousin visited the factory and asked the Morten why they don't lap the barrels to a mirror type finish. Morten said they tried it and found that because the barrel and the bullet were so smooth the pressure went through the roof due to increased friction and the barrel copper fouled very badly.