lee collet dies/rcbs dies/foster bonanza dies/who's dies are best?

[Bullet bumper]

I see the word "best "a lot in your post. It gives me the impression that you think that all you need is a very good die and nothing else.
We have to drop the " best " concept . What is more relevant is " what is the most suitable die system to what I am trying to achieve "
There is many ways to reload and many combinations of dies and varying skill levels producing different classes of ammo .
The Lee collet die is a good die for neck sizing unturned brass but most new users don't know how to use it and the Lee instructions are poor and most Lee presses don't cam over so make it harder to use their " own " die.
Many people are measuring run out in the wrong way and getting extra error .
Without a run down on your die system and how you use them it is hard to say where the run out is coming from .
I would hazard a guess that case necks are being pulled out of line by an expander ball type die and you are bullet seating in one heavy slam bam thankyou man type of movement .
A good combination for general hunting ammo is neck size with a Lee collet die in an RCBS RC press . When the case gets a bit tight to chamber body size in a Redding body die . Seat bullets in a Redding comp die .
Uneven neck hardness and thickness could also be agrevating the issue.
I neck turn for every cartridge I reload in factory chambers and it makes The Lee collet die work even better but their is a special way to do it .

 

[Ridgerunner665]

I resize (full length) on a Lee Classic Turret press....the 4 hole version...with a Lee full length sizer die (I have the "Deluxe" die set)...I have all of my sizer dies on a turret...speeds up the process when loading for more than one caliber...I have tried the neck sizing too, didn't see any accuracy improvements and don't care for the lack of "feel" when neck sizing...

I use a RCBS RockChucker press to seat the bullets with the Lee seater die...I like the floating seater plug.

My ammo seems about as accurate as any...

A short video...
2012-05-21_02-53-32_724.mp4 video by Ridgerunner665 - Photobucket


Its got a lot more to do with the person pulling the levers than anything...Perfectly good ammo can be made using just about any set of tools...if you take the time to do it.

My humble little setup...

And the fruits of my labor...30-06

 

[boomtube]

All dies work pretty well if the user knows what he's doing, nothing works well if he doesn't. There is no automatic "best" die brand, if there was we'd all use them and the others would have gone out of business long ago.

We all have favorite dies based on our personal tastes and how much we have to spend to feel confident but sizer dies are all made to SAAMI specs. There's as much average variatation between sizers of the same brand as there is between brands.

Common seaters tend to be pretty good but a really good seater is pure chance, not brand; they vary a bit and we get what comes with our set. ONLY the 'competion' seaters by Forster and Redding have a small but fairly consistant seating advantage over other designs but even they aren't automatically better; if the user is clumsy the dies won't matter.

Most run-out is caused by poor case necks, no seater can seat bullets straight into a crooked neck.

Your targets will never know what brand of dies made the ammo. Lee's dies are the least costly of the common designs and, on average, they work as well as any other common dies.

 

[DazzH]

I'm using Lee collet dies for my 300 SAUM and Redding comp dies for my 7WSM. Cost being a consideration or not, the Lee die's a great piece of gear. Before I first used them I stripped them down as directed to clean and re-lube them, I took the opportunity to look at the "quality" of machining and couldn't fault them. The instructions were a little lacking but a search on line told me all I needed to know about how best to use them. I don't check for runout, there seems to be enough written about how well they compare and the reloads shoot spot on. I use a redding body die for bumping the shoulder.
I can't fault my Redding comp dies, but I would rate the Lee's as equally fit for purpose, and a whole lot cheaper.

 

[Trickymissfit]

Re: lee collet dies/rcbs dies/foster bonanza dies/who\'s dies are best?

Why not go back to the Redding? They are still #1. The new Forester benchrest are good. The new RCBS micrometer dies are supposed to be like the Forester. Lots of folks use the Lee collet dies. You get what you pay for in seating dies. It is hard to beat the bushing type dies like the Redding if you want very low runouts.

Redding stole their seater design from Forster after the patents ran out. I have Banaza seaters that were cut in the 1970's and are identical to the new stuff. The Forster seems to have a little less backlash in the micrometer dial than the Reddings (I own both types), and are way cheaper. I like the Forster full length die better than the others because of the way the stem and sizer ball is setup. Otherwise there's little difference between them.

I bought a couple sets of Lee Collet dies a few years back, and just gave up on them. I couldn't get round necks with them, and the case bodies showed some problems as well. Looks like they should have been two or three thousandths small all the way around. Kinda like I was over working the die, and I hate their stem setup.
gary

 

[Trickymissfit]

Re: lee collet dies/rcbs dies/foster bonanza dies/who\'s dies are best?

i personally like to use Hornady New Dimension Dies. All of my dies are Hornady and I think they are just as good as the expensive stuff. don't go with lee, youd be better off hammering the bullets in and taking a needle and hammer for the primer. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

worst dies I ever used
gary

 

[Trickymissfit]

All dies work pretty well if the user knows what he's doing, nothing works well if he doesn't. There is no automatic "best" die brand, if there was we'd all use them and the others would have gone out of business long ago.

We all have favorite dies based on our personal tastes and how much we have to spend to feel confident but sizer dies are all made to SAAMI specs. There's as much average variatation between sizers of the same brand as there is between brands.

Common seaters tend to be pretty good but a really good seater is pure chance, not brand; they vary a bit and we get what comes with our set. ONLY the 'competion' seaters by Forster and Redding have a small but fairly consistant seating advantage over other designs but even they aren't automatically better; if the user is clumsy the dies won't matter.

Most run-out is caused by poor case necks, no seater can seat bullets straight into a crooked neck.

Your targets will never know what brand of dies made the ammo. Lee's dies are the least costly of the common designs and, on average, they work as well as any other common dies.

good post! Garbage in garbage out!
gary

 

[Freddie Hunt]

Thanks for that Joe, very kind and helpful of you!
Cheers
Fred

 

[boomtube]

"Many people are measuring run out in the wrong way and getting extra "
error ."

True. But, a lot of people measure runout incorrectly and get much lower numbers than they really have. I know one guy who used the excellant Sinclair concentricity gage by positioning his dial indicator plunger directly above the steel balls so all he was reading was how round his bullets were! (It was easy to correct him tho, he was new to concentricity testing and was doing it wrong but he wasn't stupid! )

No matter how we measure runout or what our numbers are, what we should be working for is "0" and if we get that we're good no matter how we read it. (Unless we're just 'checking' the bullets themselves! )

 

[Bullet bumper]

I agree , but " extra error " can mean higher or lower numbers .
Above or below what it actually is , is still an error .
It is actually very hard to find the centre line of a cartridge case and have any device rotate said case on that perfect centre that relies on the outside of the case for a guide. Especially cases coming out of large factory chambers with a bulge on one side and if that bulge sits on the gauge supports .
As far as I can tell the only system that would come close to being a replica of how the cartridge case actually fits in the chamber would be a case holder system similar to a Wilson trimmer case holder rotating in precision bearings cut with the same chamber reamer .
However in a factory chamber you could get it showing no run out then chamber the cartridge and because of the need to have some clearance for easy chambering and neck clearance the case neck sits lower than perfect centre anyway.
Hence tight neck chambers , but in a factory chamber I use partial neck sizing to reduce this effect .

 

[Trickymissfit]

"Many people are measuring run out in the wrong way and getting extra "
error ."

True. But, a lot of people measure runout incorrectly and get much lower numbers than they really have. I know one guy who used the excellant Sinclair concentricity gage by positioning his dial indicator plunger directly above the steel balls so all he was reading was how round his bullets were! (It was easy to correct him tho, he was new to concentricity testing and was doing it wrong but he wasn't stupid! )

No matter how we measure runout or what our numbers are, what we should be working for is "0" and if we get that we're good no matter how we read it. (Unless we're just 'checking' the bullets themselves! )

pretty good post to start out a Monday morning!!!
gary

 

[Trickymissfit]

I agree , but " extra error " can mean higher or lower numbers .
Above or below what it actually is , is still an error .
It is actually very hard to find the centre line of a cartridge case and have any device rotate said case on that perfect centre that relies on the outside of the case for a guide. Especially cases coming out of large factory chambers with a bulge on one side and if that bulge sits on the gauge supports .
As far as I can tell the only system that would come close to being a replica of how the cartridge case actually fits in the chamber would be a case holder system similar to a Wilson trimmer case holder rotating in precision bearings cut with the same chamber reamer .
However in a factory chamber you could get it showing no run out then chamber the cartridge and because of the need to have some clearance for easy chambering and neck clearance the case neck sits lower than perfect centre anyway.
Hence tight neck chambers , but in a factory chamber I use partial neck sizing to reduce this effect .

**** that's two great post to start out a Monday morning! Boy we are on a roll this morning!
gary

 

[Bullet bumper]

Thanks , that is very nice of you to say that . Good threads where people get involved and discuss things properly will always come up with better info .
There is good safe basic ways to reload but there is no perfect right or best way , only the way that gets the results you are wanting to achieve for what you do .

 

[boomtube]

"Especially cases coming out of large factory chambers with a bulge on one side and if that bulge sits on the gauge supports ."

I don't care how 'accurate' my runout is from a mechainst's point of view, what I want to see is no wiggle on that gage.

Given your recognition of how difficult it is to properly support a cartridge so the results are of runout rather than case inaccuracies drove me to make my own runout gage. Wanting to know the relitive angular displacement of the bullets led me to a system I've seen no where else.

The only machined surface on a case is the extraction groove. I have a 1/16" thick bit of sheet teflon with a "V" cut that the extractor cut drops into. A similar teflon V notch is adjusted to support the bullet just outside the case mouth. The dial indicator plunger is positioned as close to the meplat as possible but not where pointing irregularities could influnce the gage. Slowly turning each cartridge gives me consistant high and low readings at the same places, total indicated runout, over most of the bullet's exposed length and that's all I need.