Lab radar opinions

[kiwikid]

The only comparison I have done is between the LabRadar and a Shooting Chrony Gama. With 22-250 loads I was seeing results within 10 fps with the LabRadar being the faster. These loads were almost 3600 fps. There is a comparison review on the web that used the LabRadar, Magneto Speed and an Oehler 35P and from memory the results were withing 4-5 fps.

 

[yawn]

I had cause to test the customer service with a fault preventing the unit from arming. I was on the edge of the one year but it was repaired under warrenty. Communication was very good and the Australian repair guy was excellent. In conversation he said the main issues they are seeing are damaged usb ports from power pack plugs and general handling issues. He has tested the labradar alongside a $250,000 ballistic radar and says it was within 1fps. I have a lot of faith in the speeds given .
This is the guy for those of us down under www.labradar.com.au

 

[Greyfox]

I've owned mine since it's introduction, one of the initial units. It has worked exceptionally well, and produces velocities consistent with my Magnetospeed....without the POI change! Firmware updates are easy, and performed right off of their web site. As mentioned, battery life, particularly in cold weather is a problem requiring an accessory battery pack. The mounting plate was a great idea until the ball mounts crapped out and wouldn't support the unit after several outings. I have been using a small, cheap Bushnell spotting scope tripod that works great. IMO, it's a great tool if you do a lot of chronographing/loadwork.

 

[entoptics]

Last weekend I learned the LabRadar will detect 357 Magnum and .454 Casull bullets on the far side of a 4'x4' cardboard target.

...In 13 of those last 14 shots fired, the bullet velocities were recorded all the way out to 75yds. There was one bullet with bullet speed recorded to 30yds, but no farther.
The other 13 bullet velocities were recorded on the far side of my 33yd cardboard target at 45, 60, and 75yds.

Have you all tested speeds collected by your lab radars vs speeds collected from other chronos?...

I have also always wondered if it truly was reading bullet speeds at the various distances to just doing the ballistic math. Stories of rounds being tracked behind targets really makes me wonder.

I'm not sure it's "penetrating" the cardboard, though I could be wrong. I've gotten readings past the target before, but only with large bore, relatively slow, flat based bullets. My guess is that it can "see" through the bullet hole for a few yards past the target. I could be wrong, but I'll do some experiments next time I'm out to confirm.

Regarding reports of specious results, If you understand how it's working, you can see why it sometimes gives goofy velocities. (see below)

The following may be more than anyone wants to know, but hey, there may be some other nerds on here that are interested.

The LabRadar "tracks" the bullet many times as it goes down range. This tracking doesn't start until the bullet is several yds down range because of the delay between the gun blast triggering the unit and the first readings. Depending on the speed of the bullet, the first reading can be pretty far out (~13 yds for my 300WM @2920 fps).

If you pull the SD card, there are files for each shot, showing the time, calculated velocity and distance, as well as the signal/noise (indicating how well it was tracked at each point). My files indicate the unit begins tracking ~0.01 seconds after the shot triggers it, and every 0.001 seconds afterwords until it loses tracking. The software takes this information and extrapolates to 0 yds using linear regression to give the muzzle velocity (V0). It also uses this extrapolation to get the velocity at the user's 5 preset distances. In the case of "Tracking through the cardboard", it may be getting readings through the bullet hole, or simply be using the tracking up to 30 yds to extrapolate to the user set distances past 30 yds...or it's tracking the cardboard...As an example, I just looked at some 454 Casull data I collected yesterday, and it indicates the bullet was tracked to 130 yds, despite a 100 yd foam board target. If you look closely though, the velocity stops dropping at exactly 101 yds, and the signal/noise ratio plummets. I believe it is "tracking" the cardboard at that point, which obviously isn't moving. Another shot track does seem to track the bullet for a few yards past the target though, with good SNR, so I'm not sure what's going on.

Anyway, this system works quite well most of the time but, the software isn't very "smart", and for some reason the designers decided to use the data points near a particular distance to calculate the regression, instead of the entire track. The software doesn't seem to have a filter to ignore obviously suspect readings in the track, and if there's a bad reading early on, it will mess up the V0 calculation (one poster mentions a 13,000 fps reading). I've seen similar things many times e.g. V0 = 6200 fps, but then V10 = 2900 fps. Indeed, I've rescued important velocities by opening the track file in Excel, deleting the suspect readings, and performing a regression myself.

Regarding the OP's original question...Despite the App being kinda crappy, and the aforementioned regression issues, the LabRadar is still the best consumer chrony out there IMO. It's the easiest to setup and the most accurate, and the ability to use the tracking data to calculate B.C.s is awesome.

 

[Pdvdh]

I'm not sure it's "penetrating" the cardboard, though I could be wrong. I've gotten readings past the target before, but only with large bore, relatively slow, flat based bullets. My guess is that it can "see" through the bullet hole for a few yards past the target. I could be wrong, but I'll do some experiments next time I'm out to confirm.

I've confirmed the LabRadar functions thru cardboard, such as to satisfy my current level of curiousity.

Here's the Data printout from my LabRadar for the first four (4) bullets fired, when the yardage settings were 5-10-15-20-25yds. The unit stopped collecting data ~10yds past the farthest programmed yardage setting (25yds). So it stopped collecting velocity data at ~35yds. All four bullets were fired from a .357 Magnum revolver.

Here's my Data printout for the last four (4) bullets fired, when the yardage settings were programmed to 15-30-45-60-75yds. The unit again stopped collecting velocity data ~10yds past the farthest yardage setting (75yds). So it collected data to ~85yds. The first 3 columns of data are shots number 15, 16, and 17, and were fired from a .357 Magnum revolver. The last column of data, shot number 18, was fired from a .454 Casull revolver.

It seems pretty intuitive that the wavelength utilized by the LabRadar penetrates the cardboard no problems, and that the LabRadar has been programmed to collect velocity data for approximately 10yds farther than the maximum yardage setting. I say intuitive, because why would the unit continue to collect and print out a signal noise ratio until 10yds past the maximum distance programmed into the settings, if it really stopped collecting actual data as soon as it passed thru my cardboard target at a distance of 33yds down range? What would be the purpose of "creating" a signal to noise ratio if a signal was no longer being detected. The only hypothetical purposes I can think of, would be to confuse and fool operators like us, which is rather nonsensical.

A quick Google search of radar operating wavelengths will show them to be in the radio and microwave lengths. I suspect the Labradar is in the radio wavelength, because microwaves sound more hazardous to operator health. Does anyone think radio waves are unable to penetrate buildings? Ever listen to a portable, battery powered radio inside of buildings? I'm not professing to be an expert on the LabRadar technology, or radar in general. But it seems obvious the radar operates at wavelengths our eyes cannot sense/see. Otherwise we would see something when the waves were being sent downrange. So why couldn't radar sense/see things our eyes cannot see?

If someone wants to get to the absolute, stone cold truth, then call LabRadar and ask to speak to their design engineer. I think their unit records velocity thru my 1/4" cardboard target, and with these .357" and .452" bullets, it collected data ~ 10yds downrange of the maximum range I'd programmed into the unit.

 

[josef]

Phorwath- thanks for the data. My question earlier was purely out of curiousity and not trying for some gotcha moment. Do you know what distance the berm you were shooting into was at?

 

[Pdvdh]

There was only a sheet of cardboard, 1/4" thick, and about 4 1/2' wide by 5' tall. The cardboard was pinned against a 1 1/2" diameter dead spruce tree with no limbs. Just a bare naked stub sticking up at the edge of a large frozen wetland/swamp.

There was nothing behind the cardboard for a distance of 270yds. There, some trees growing on a gentle hill across the bare frozen wetland/swamp.

So all the radar had to do was send and receive a radio wave thru the cardboard target.

 

[barleydog]

ya gotta get the rechargeable battery pack...….it and the platform and the soft case are a must....

 

[entoptics]

Seems like it's definitely tracking past the target, as I agree the unit wouldn't bother spoofing data, unless something particularly deceitful is in the design.

I don't know the wavelength, but from my understanding of RADAR, it can't be much longer of a wavelength than the size of the thing it's trying to detect, so it's theoretically no more than about the size of a bullet. The software indicates a frequency of ~24 Ghz. As an aside, a frequency of 24 Ghz and wavelength of ~1cm means the LabRadar is indeed emitting microwaves.

Anyway, generally speaking, the shorter the wavelength of radio waves, the worse the penetration. Add to that the LabRadar being powered by a few AA batteries means it's not exactly the same as an FM Radio Tower at 25,000 Watts and 3 meter wavelengths.

I also graphed time and distance vs SNR (see attached). Really weird patterns there. The SNR drops as the tracking approaches the target, but then it starts increasing past the target. There's also a sort of "wave" pattern. Thought maybe it was the bullet climbing out of the "view" of the unit, then coming back in. As you can see with a JBM trajectory plotted, that's unlikely, as a 454 300 gr XTP Mag at 1880 fps (Rossi 92 16" bbl) only rises about an inch with a 100 yd zero.

Regardless, "cardboard penetrating radar" is pretty interesting, and should be easy enough to definitively test. To eliminate my "bullet hole" theory (which the trajectory plot almost does already), one could place a piece of cardboard right in front of the unit and see if it still tracks.

Frankly, I hope it can see through stuff. Makes the thing even cooler.

EDIT: Target was at 100 yds for this shot.

 

[entoptics]

ya gotta get the rechargeable battery pack...….it and the platform and the soft case are a must....

The one sold by LabRadar is a bit spendy. I've even seen reports that it can be had on Amazon.com for half the price they charge.

https://buymylabradar.com/products/usb-battery-bank
$25

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01A08K178/?tag=lrhmag19-20
$12.50

I have a cheapish one from god knows where that works just fine. All you need is a micro USB to USB, and any battery pack will power it.

 

[WildRose]

How would you compare the lab-radar to an Oehler?

Like the difference in a 2018 Ferrari and a John Deere Tractor.

 

[Pdvdh]

Seems like it's definitely tracking past the target, as I agree the unit wouldn't bother spoofing data, unless something particularly deceitful is in the design.

I don't know the wavelength, but from my understanding of RADAR, it can't be much longer of a wavelength than the size of the thing it's trying to detect, so it's theoretically no more than about the size of a bullet. The software indicates a frequency of ~24 Ghz. As an aside, a frequency of 24 Ghz and wavelength of ~1cm means the LabRadar is indeed emitting microwaves.

Regardless, "cardboard penetrating radar" is pretty interesting, and should be easy enough to definitively test. To eliminate my "bullet hole" theory (which the trajectory plot almost does already), one could place a piece of cardboard right in front of the unit and see if it still tracks.

Frankly, I hope it can see through stuff. Makes the thing even cooler.

As stated, I make no claims to being any expert in the field of radar. But until an expert convincingly disputes the output from my LabRadar, I believe it reads and sees the 357 and 454 bullets on both sides of my large cardboard target.

I would bet heavily that recording bullets thru cardboard was never a design parameter of the unit, by the team of design engineers responsible for the unit that's now being sold. And I would guess they don't know it'll track bullet velocity downrange thru cardboard.

Lastly, I bet it won't be long before they're informed. And at that point in time, I'll be requesting a finder's fee! They could at least send me a soft case, or a spare battery...

 

[Pdvdh]

The software indicates a frequency of ~24 Ghz. As an aside, a frequency of 24 Ghz and wavelength of ~1cm means the LabRadar is indeed emitting microwaves.

You've prompted some Google research. Radio waves include frequencies as high as 300 GHz. 24 GHz falls into the Super High Frequency band, according to the National Telecommunications and Information Administration.

24 GHz also fits the classification, and the definition, of microwave. It falls within both categories/classes of electromagnetic radiation.

 

[Mc Fraser]

How thick is the table mount plate?