While sarcasm does not transmit well through text, your intent is clear enough.
So why not just state what you mean to say in direct words?
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Knuckle Joint Bullet Recovery
- Thread starter RockyMtnMT
- Start date
Help Support Long Range Hunting Forum
So why not just state what you mean to say in direct words?
If you gonna talk the talk,,,,walk the walk.Gday beeman
It's very hard to drop down in weight or let alone change brands when things are going well & it's not saying that x pill won't kill it's trying to find the one that kills more efficiently , that keeps some of us ticking
It's no one size fits all that's for sure
That little pill @ that impact/ resistance is extremely impressive & one I can't wait to see Steve & Brian test them on a few critters that I'm sure will sort out a line in the sand but I'm very confident that the shank will stay intact the only resistance that might upset the shank is teeth but from my tests so far I can't even kill those shanks on that resistance
Yep I don't think Steve even knows that I've tried that hard to kill his pills but he will now
& before I get raked over the coals by some it's a legitimate test to find out if /how a bullet will preform as if the need ever arises I want to know I'm safe or whom I'm standing beside is
Cheers
You sir, are walking the walk.
The king of the mountain will always be approached by the second string.
Imitation, not duplication.
Carl, I'm gonna push this to the extreme with the new build
Gday
Here's some of my favourite shanks well @ the moment lol
The 2 little flying ashtrays are ever so thin ( it's designed that way & is a specialist pill not as broad as hammers normally are ) & I just thought I would have killed them yet they still stayed together, straight in the shank & the critters wound channel yes they are starting to round off on the meplat but man we have to give a bit of Leigh way as @ ea side of 4k impacts they still preformed extremely well & I'll take that bit of rounded as the bubble that this pill is simply awesome but Steve get it straight /square then I'll stop hassling you as that would be the holy grail
now these are not longrange pills & totally understand that but it does show a very impressive designed pill that I've failed to kill so where is the top end of hammers I'm yet to find out & I am awaiting my mates build that we hopefully will kill a hammer
.cheers
Here's some of my favourite shanks well @ the moment lol
The 2 little flying ashtrays are ever so thin ( it's designed that way & is a specialist pill not as broad as hammers normally are ) & I just thought I would have killed them yet they still stayed together, straight in the shank & the critters wound channel yes they are starting to round off on the meplat but man we have to give a bit of Leigh way as @ ea side of 4k impacts they still preformed extremely well & I'll take that bit of rounded as the bubble that this pill is simply awesome but Steve get it straight /square then I'll stop hassling you as that would be the holy grail
now these are not longrange pills & totally understand that but it does show a very impressive designed pill that I've failed to kill so where is the top end of hammers I'm yet to find out & I am awaiting my mates build that we hopefully will kill a hammer
.cheers
Hard rock
Well-Known Member
Why not ?
Absolutely no reason.
Time is limiting factor.
Hard rock
Well-Known Member
Constructive Ctriticism is always welcome on my part, but sarcasm causes arguments as we all know. So let's keep it fun and informative.
@Harper,
Given all the drama on LRH lately, I'm a bit reluctant to venture very far in my commenting on the virtues of Hammer Bullets. In my personal experience, they are hands-down the best bullets I've ever used, and I've used a bunch. If what I'm about to write blows up in my face, I'm done responding to posts. I'll keep on updating the Hammer Load Data for the benefit of members.
Regarding the 85gr Hammer Hunter, it is still the "gold standard" against which I measure all other Hammers (and other bullets). The terminal performance of this bullet defies logic and expectations. This bullet proportion/design/metallurgy combination does things WAY above it's weight class and nobody can figure out (as yet) what is so magic about this particular combination?
This particular bullet has generated much speculation and testing trying to figure out what makes its performance so superior. One theory is that it is the petal to shank ratio. % petals (hollow point depth) to shank. This is a length measurement percentage- NOT weight % ratio, Not the listed "nose" length on the bullet information. Some very talented people have "scaled" the 85gr HH up to greater weights to test this hypothesis. Some bullets have been turned/made to further this testing. Others likely will be, depending upon results of ongoing tests.
Still others have modified "tinkered" with hollow point depths, bullet lengths and hollow point wall thicknesses. Testing is still ongoing. Early results seem to point out that there is a "sweet spot" in performance at a certain ratio of petals to shank. That is, at a certain ratio, the bullet transitions from its aerodynamic (flight) form to its terminal (penetration) form very quickly and efficiently. The petals are shed and become individual projectiles doing their own damage. The shank becomes a cylinder (blunt wad cutter shape-No mushroom) for maximum straight line penetration. Ideally, the shank will have very little flaring/mushrooming. When this flattening/flaring is seen, it is usually after impacting a very hard bone/knuckle.
Fordy mentioned a phenomenon several of us call "the bubble". This is another aspect that the 85gr HH excels in. Speaking for myself, I was ignorant of this phenomenon and had never witnessed it until I started shooting bullets at very high velocity. I am familiar with temporary and permanent wound cavities. I've gutted/cleaned many, many deer and looked inside many carcasses. I'm used to seeing heavily damaged/shredded lung lobes, livers and hearts. "The bubble" is another whole process.
I will not put up any numbers on deer killed. Suffice it to say I hunt on 2-3 depredation permits each year and kill many more deer than the average individual. Nothing to brag about, it stems from economic necessity for me and my neighbors and frankly gets very tiresome.
When I first started using Hammers, I shot them at normal/average velocities. Seeing the higher velocities I got made me curious. Then I met a few of the regulars on Hammertime and this Forum (and I was ruined – "corrupted" is the word most often used.) Now I have become all about speed and high velocity impacts – because I have experienced the bubble and seen what high velocity impacts do to internal organs. Bullet impacts at and especially above 3100-3200 fps do some amazing things.
I started shooting the 85gr HH at a muzzle velocity of 4005 fps. Impact velocity at 250 yds is still over 3200 fps. At 300, still zooming at over 3000 fps.
I am not a long range shooter. My personal line is 400yds. If others have the skill/ability, good for them. You do you. I'm happy with my self imposed limit and could care less about shooting animals to the horizon.
Now to the "bubble". I am not smart enough to explain what happens at high velocity impacts. I can only report what I have seen over and over. When a bullet impacts at "normal" velocities (including Hammers), the bullet upsets, if a Hammer – the nose petals shed immediately, a large temporary wound cavity is formed, then the cavity diminishes, and the shank proceeds on doing damage until it (usually) exits. The bullet and petals do a great deal of damage, they kill well and quickly, with extensive blood loss. By increasing impact velocity to around 3200 fps or above, a different mechanism is added. At high velocity impacts, a huge "bubble" is formed when the bullet upsets and transitions to it's terminal form. This "bubble" is exactly what you envision. It is a huge cavity/baloon formed inside the animal's chest. It is also very destructive. Lungs and heart aren't just shredded or lacerated. They are liquified (literally). When you open up a chest cavity on a deer, lungs are barely recognizable as lungs. They look more like liquid chowder with bits and pieces in them. If the heart is in tact, it is recognizable – but part of it may just be gone! The majority of the lung or lungs may be gone! Take that for what it's worth. I've seen it many times. When I pick up a deer to put it on my side by side, it it common for the deer to "slosh inside" when you move or lift it. When I open it up to gut it, it is common for internal organs to run out as a frothy liquid.
Fordy posted a video of a deer he shot recently. It was an overhead drone image of his shot. In the video, you can actually "see" the entire abdominal cavity expand as the "bubble" forms and travels through to the off-side of the deer's chest cavity. It is actually a very amazing first hand look at what we have been trying to describe.
The 85gr Hammer Hunter does this regularly when shot at high velocity. A lot of testing has centered around trying to duplicate this level of performance in other bullets of different calibers and weights. The 124gr 30 cal seems to do this and there are high hopes for the "new" 138gr 30 cal. We'll see.
The last component is penetration. Steve got a first hand glimpse of this on his recent Africa trip. How can such a small bullet penetrate so well, so straight and so far? The 124gr 30 cal also performs similarly. @Harper mentioned my track record on capturing an 85gr 6.5 "zoomie". Dang'it, I still haven't caught one yet – But I will, eventually. I now have a metal detector. My plan is to shoot one lengthwise into a deer and catch the shank. I have shot deer from both sides, at all quartering shots/angles and every bullet has exited. Most quartering shots have traveled about 18" and exited. The longest hard quartering shot was 34" and it too exited. I haven't yet shot a deer in the rump (Texas Heart shot), but I may be reduced to trying that yet. I did shoot one in the brisket, head-on at about 250 yds and the bullet did not exit. I'm sure it was somewhere in the guts and I just couldn't find it (in 2 tries). But now, I have a metal detector and I WILL find one eventually. I think when I do I'll frame it! So far in about 20 deer I haven't caught one of the elusive" zoomies" yet!
@Harper, I hope this is somewhat close to what you wanted as an update on the 85gr Hammer Hunter.
Given all the drama on LRH lately, I'm a bit reluctant to venture very far in my commenting on the virtues of Hammer Bullets. In my personal experience, they are hands-down the best bullets I've ever used, and I've used a bunch. If what I'm about to write blows up in my face, I'm done responding to posts. I'll keep on updating the Hammer Load Data for the benefit of members.
Regarding the 85gr Hammer Hunter, it is still the "gold standard" against which I measure all other Hammers (and other bullets). The terminal performance of this bullet defies logic and expectations. This bullet proportion/design/metallurgy combination does things WAY above it's weight class and nobody can figure out (as yet) what is so magic about this particular combination?
This particular bullet has generated much speculation and testing trying to figure out what makes its performance so superior. One theory is that it is the petal to shank ratio. % petals (hollow point depth) to shank. This is a length measurement percentage- NOT weight % ratio, Not the listed "nose" length on the bullet information. Some very talented people have "scaled" the 85gr HH up to greater weights to test this hypothesis. Some bullets have been turned/made to further this testing. Others likely will be, depending upon results of ongoing tests.
Still others have modified "tinkered" with hollow point depths, bullet lengths and hollow point wall thicknesses. Testing is still ongoing. Early results seem to point out that there is a "sweet spot" in performance at a certain ratio of petals to shank. That is, at a certain ratio, the bullet transitions from its aerodynamic (flight) form to its terminal (penetration) form very quickly and efficiently. The petals are shed and become individual projectiles doing their own damage. The shank becomes a cylinder (blunt wad cutter shape-No mushroom) for maximum straight line penetration. Ideally, the shank will have very little flaring/mushrooming. When this flattening/flaring is seen, it is usually after impacting a very hard bone/knuckle.
Fordy mentioned a phenomenon several of us call "the bubble". This is another aspect that the 85gr HH excels in. Speaking for myself, I was ignorant of this phenomenon and had never witnessed it until I started shooting bullets at very high velocity. I am familiar with temporary and permanent wound cavities. I've gutted/cleaned many, many deer and looked inside many carcasses. I'm used to seeing heavily damaged/shredded lung lobes, livers and hearts. "The bubble" is another whole process.
I will not put up any numbers on deer killed. Suffice it to say I hunt on 2-3 depredation permits each year and kill many more deer than the average individual. Nothing to brag about, it stems from economic necessity for me and my neighbors and frankly gets very tiresome.
When I first started using Hammers, I shot them at normal/average velocities. Seeing the higher velocities I got made me curious. Then I met a few of the regulars on Hammertime and this Forum (and I was ruined – "corrupted" is the word most often used.) Now I have become all about speed and high velocity impacts – because I have experienced the bubble and seen what high velocity impacts do to internal organs. Bullet impacts at and especially above 3100-3200 fps do some amazing things.
I started shooting the 85gr HH at a muzzle velocity of 4005 fps. Impact velocity at 250 yds is still over 3200 fps. At 300, still zooming at over 3000 fps.
I am not a long range shooter. My personal line is 400yds. If others have the skill/ability, good for them. You do you. I'm happy with my self imposed limit and could care less about shooting animals to the horizon.
Now to the "bubble". I am not smart enough to explain what happens at high velocity impacts. I can only report what I have seen over and over. When a bullet impacts at "normal" velocities (including Hammers), the bullet upsets, if a Hammer – the nose petals shed immediately, a large temporary wound cavity is formed, then the cavity diminishes, and the shank proceeds on doing damage until it (usually) exits. The bullet and petals do a great deal of damage, they kill well and quickly, with extensive blood loss. By increasing impact velocity to around 3200 fps or above, a different mechanism is added. At high velocity impacts, a huge "bubble" is formed when the bullet upsets and transitions to it's terminal form. This "bubble" is exactly what you envision. It is a huge cavity/baloon formed inside the animal's chest. It is also very destructive. Lungs and heart aren't just shredded or lacerated. They are liquified (literally). When you open up a chest cavity on a deer, lungs are barely recognizable as lungs. They look more like liquid chowder with bits and pieces in them. If the heart is in tact, it is recognizable – but part of it may just be gone! The majority of the lung or lungs may be gone! Take that for what it's worth. I've seen it many times. When I pick up a deer to put it on my side by side, it it common for the deer to "slosh inside" when you move or lift it. When I open it up to gut it, it is common for internal organs to run out as a frothy liquid.
Fordy posted a video of a deer he shot recently. It was an overhead drone image of his shot. In the video, you can actually "see" the entire abdominal cavity expand as the "bubble" forms and travels through to the off-side of the deer's chest cavity. It is actually a very amazing first hand look at what we have been trying to describe.
The 85gr Hammer Hunter does this regularly when shot at high velocity. A lot of testing has centered around trying to duplicate this level of performance in other bullets of different calibers and weights. The 124gr 30 cal seems to do this and there are high hopes for the "new" 138gr 30 cal. We'll see.
The last component is penetration. Steve got a first hand glimpse of this on his recent Africa trip. How can such a small bullet penetrate so well, so straight and so far? The 124gr 30 cal also performs similarly. @Harper mentioned my track record on capturing an 85gr 6.5 "zoomie". Dang'it, I still haven't caught one yet – But I will, eventually. I now have a metal detector. My plan is to shoot one lengthwise into a deer and catch the shank. I have shot deer from both sides, at all quartering shots/angles and every bullet has exited. Most quartering shots have traveled about 18" and exited. The longest hard quartering shot was 34" and it too exited. I haven't yet shot a deer in the rump (Texas Heart shot), but I may be reduced to trying that yet. I did shoot one in the brisket, head-on at about 250 yds and the bullet did not exit. I'm sure it was somewhere in the guts and I just couldn't find it (in 2 tries). But now, I have a metal detector and I WILL find one eventually. I think when I do I'll frame it! So far in about 20 deer I haven't caught one of the elusive" zoomies" yet!
@Harper, I hope this is somewhat close to what you wanted as an update on the 85gr Hammer Hunter.
HARPERC
Well-Known Member
Thankyou sir for the kind words
But I know a couple ahead of me
I do believe my biggest asset is searching how we can get better results from the failures or less than ideal results that on the less than ideal results it's not just a dead critter to me it's how I can secure that animal quicker & the fur calculator has shown what is possible & what is left wanting
We are blessed today to have some very good pills & for those that will dabble their toes in the mono world of todays pills & tomorrow's offerings the bar is moving higher in leaps & bounds where the c&c world has kinda stagnated but some great results are had with them but I'm already of the opinion a couple brands of monos have surpassed c&c & even a old war horse I've used a lot & still regard as a really good frangible but they are lacking in the total picture especially the bubble
I don't say this lightly I say that when we look @ what will potentially/ eventually & does happen in the field & that's when we see where a c& c is wanting a bit more or a lot in some cases just as many monos do
Overall it's just my opinion & what I've seen throughout my life & if you still love the good old nosler or a Berger etc by all means use it & I wish you many successful hunts / kills to come
Cheers
NZTahr
Well-Known Member
I use Hammers' and am very happy with them. Have also extensive experience with Barnes and have to say I have never noticed them being brittle. Every Barnes that I recovered had performed as expected. All varieties. Never had a failure to kill. Notwithstanding that I prefer the Hammers because of their petal damage and shock factor.
100% spot on GL
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Yo bro. We've talked on the phone and you've shared photos privately. No question you're the real "critter quitter"Gday beeman
It's very hard to drop down in weight or let alone change brands when things are going well & it's not saying that x pill won't kill it's trying to find the one that kills more efficiently , that keeps some of us ticking
It's no one size fits all that's for sure
That little pill @ that impact/ resistance is extremely impressive & one I can't wait to see Steve & Brian test them on a few critters that I'm sure will sort out a line in the sand but I'm very confident that the shank will stay intact the only resistance that might upset the shank is teeth but from my tests so far I can't even kill those shanks on that resistance
Yep I don't think Steve even knows that I've tried that hard to kill his pills but he will now
& before I get raked over the coals by some it's a legitimate test to find out if /how a bullet will preform as if the need ever arises I want to know I'm safe or whom I'm standing beside is
Cheers
From the piles of animals I've seen, you could easily fill a barrel of teeth to shoot into. (Except for the ones you knocked on the head - those teeth looked like they evaporated along with the head...) Never would have thought of a test like that. I'm trying to imagine what your "tooth test" looks like... 
Keep your thing going. Stay safe and get enough sleep. 
Gday GL
First off thankyou in so many ways & so glad we have crossed paths & not frightened to put that out here
i class George as a good mate but this in no way clouds our results as private discussions of what's going on & what's not is frank & challenging @ times but our knowledge has grown & still more to learn but we are lucky to have some really smart ones who are patient explaining time after time & really Steve must have plenty of batteries in his glass to put up with us with the requests we have it must get bewildering @ times & we just like tinkering & what Steve does with the info is his to do what he pleases & some things he's come up with have challenged us to say the least & we are so looking forward to his next chapter
Yes we are in a good place George & id ask you to reconsider if individuals ramp up on you as that maybe the Game they want to play
But your knowledge is welcome from many not a few imo
Sorry for derail
Corruption yes we have ea other to blame among a few others & the metal detectors are priceless in working so much out & I really hope more testers start using them but be warned some animals have hours spent dissecting them , a reciprocating saw is also valuable on the big critters & that's why we are all lucky to have you George & this is not only the hammer crowd it's us as hunters in the whole as the whole community learns
Now the big one the bubble
nice description GL
I will add a touch hope that's ok
On the drone footage it's something I've know is there just not quite to that extent & let's face it that wasn't the best placed shot but showed well enough for people to start to @ least visualise the bubble
I won't go into that anymore because I need to start a thread on that & other information as I was asked & not by a hammer supporter either so I'll leave that @ that until I get time to start a new thread
So
There are bubbles & there are bubbles
you can kinda get it with a c&c it's close but not quite there & only on certain resistances ( some brands also play a role ) but it's not what certain hammer bubbles can do & while it sounds easy for any bullet to get its extremely hard to get the correct bubble as we have proven that time after time & altering a pill by minute margins we are getting different bubbles but we know the one we do like don't we George
Bangflop is our aim from any angle any resistance once we get that Steve can rest up as we will leave him alone then
& still room for others to try & get there first but you better start looking @ critters as it dosent show up in gel well not that I can see ( gel & other media are always good references but nothing compares to critters & gel dosent run & we talk multiple critters before a conclusion is taken on board
Yes still room for improvement & what I've seen a few other brands are getting close but not there yet
We also have seen a bubble that is producing some of the mush below 2000 impacts with hammers which is pretty cool as usually the c&c cut out just above this & monos really struggle to get some mush until mid to high 2's
oh how much we have learned & the biggest one I think we gained the most knowledge was the blackout & man wasn't that a frangible on steroids
I better stop derailing & get back to that shank in the golden yes it's squished but it's so important to retain its mass ( you'll love that petey308 please people that's not a snide remark to him as he will vouch I'm sure ) more along the lines of integrity I think that's correct ( I struggle with the correct words & why I always love to talk than type ) that allows it to do what it does but there is a lot going on which is way over our heads that we just don't know why but time after time certain pills are defying logic & theories
Even same weight pills of different brands you just watch the difference on how brand x vrs y react on bones some punch some bite & some fracture , now move this to angles & the outcome can be quite varied especially @ low velocity impact
Yes on the surface a lot of pills look the same & will all kill if placed correctly & within its windows but some do a better job than others
It's that simple
Thanks once again GL & catch you soon on the darkside to hopefully work a little more of what produces that perfect bubble yep your on notice Steve
Northkill my ears must have been burning lol as I've been trying to get time to call again & was only saying to my son yesterday I needed to give you a bit of a rundown on how things are playing out with what we discussed
& no doubt a tooth test will be bought up
but between floods my normal work & this place I've just run out of time & I have only pulled the trigger twice in the last week both on cockatoos so far it's one all lol but I've got a flock that I'm going to get the upper hand on very shortly
Catch you soon
Cheers
First off thankyou in so many ways & so glad we have crossed paths & not frightened to put that out here
i class George as a good mate but this in no way clouds our results as private discussions of what's going on & what's not is frank & challenging @ times but our knowledge has grown & still more to learn but we are lucky to have some really smart ones who are patient explaining time after time & really Steve must have plenty of batteries in his glass to put up with us
with the requests we have it must get bewildering @ times & we just like tinkering & what Steve does with the info is his to do what he pleases & some things he's come up with have challenged us to say the least & we are so looking forward to his next chapterYes we are in a good place George & id ask you to reconsider if individuals ramp up on you as that maybe the Game they want to play
But your knowledge is welcome from many not a few imoSorry for derail
Corruption yes we have ea other to blame among a few others & the metal detectors are priceless in working so much out & I really hope more testers start using them but be warned some animals have hours spent dissecting them , a reciprocating saw is also valuable on the big critters & that's why we are all lucky to have you George & this is not only the hammer crowd it's us as hunters in the whole as the whole community learns
Now the big one the bubble
nice description GL
I will add a touch hope that's ok
On the drone footage it's something I've know is there just not quite to that extent & let's face it that wasn't the best placed shot but showed well enough for people to start to @ least visualise the bubble
I won't go into that anymore because I need to start a thread on that & other information as I was asked & not by a hammer supporter either so I'll leave that @ that until I get time to start a new thread
So
There are bubbles & there are bubbles
you can kinda get it with a c&c it's close but not quite there & only on certain resistances ( some brands also play a role ) but it's not what certain hammer bubbles can do & while it sounds easy for any bullet to get its extremely hard to get the correct bubble as we have proven that time after time & altering a pill by minute margins we are getting different bubbles but we know the one we do like don't we George
Bangflop is our aim from any angle any resistance once we get that Steve can rest up as we will leave him alone then
& still room for others to try & get there first but you better start looking @ critters as it dosent show up in gel well not that I can see ( gel & other media are always good references but nothing compares to critters & gel dosent run & we talk multiple critters before a conclusion is taken on board Yes still room for improvement & what I've seen a few other brands are getting close but not there yet
We also have seen a bubble that is producing some of the mush below 2000 impacts with hammers which is pretty cool as usually the c&c cut out just above this & monos really struggle to get some mush until mid to high 2's
oh how much we have learned & the biggest one I think we gained the most knowledge was the blackout & man wasn't that a frangible on steroids
I better stop derailing & get back to that shank in the golden yes it's squished but it's so important to retain its mass ( you'll love that petey308
please people that's not a snide remark to him as he will vouch I'm sure ) more along the lines of integrity I think that's correct ( I struggle with the correct words & why I always love to talk than type ) that allows it to do what it does but there is a lot going on which is way over our heads that we just don't know why but time after time certain pills are defying logic & theoriesEven same weight pills of different brands you just watch the difference on how brand x vrs y react on bones some punch some bite & some fracture , now move this to angles & the outcome can be quite varied especially @ low velocity impact
Yes on the surface a lot of pills look the same & will all kill if placed correctly & within its windows but some do a better job than others
It's that simple
Thanks once again GL & catch you soon on the darkside to hopefully work a little more of what produces that perfect bubble yep your on notice Steve
Northkill my ears must have been burning lol as I've been trying to get time to call again & was only saying to my son yesterday I needed to give you a bit of a rundown on how things are playing out with what we discussed
& no doubt a tooth test will be bought up but between floods my normal work & this place I've just run out of time & I have only pulled the trigger twice in the last week both on cockatoos so far it's one all lol but I've got a flock that I'm going to get the upper hand on very shortly
Catch you soon
Cheers
