JHPs or Tipped bullets?

[Marcf44a300]

A couple weeks ago there was a post about VLDs failing to open - rather "penciled" through game causing long tracking or lost animals. I'm familiar with handgun hollow points being clogged and not opening, but with rifle velocities, RPMs, pressure I had a hard time believing this. I called Berger (VLDs) and Barnes (TSX). Both confirmed the need for some hydraulic fluid/tissue to enter the nose cavity to create expansion. Any manufacturing bur/defect, bent nose, dirt, pulp from a twig will cause the bullet to fail to open. Some suggest clearing the nose cavity with a small diameter drill by hand. Still this seems totally crazy to have to do this.

My African PH was recently in town. We talked bullets - I shared that I had great accuracy (7mm and 300 WM) with VLDs. Other outfitters are having good long-range elk success with 190-210 VLDs at 2,900 fps.

I shared a 200 yrd mule deer hit/miss with my 7mm VLD. Call both shots as hits - did not see rock / dirt chips from a miss. Heard hits. No reaction from the deer - he stood - looked - bounded off. No blood, no indication of a hit or wounded animal - 30 min later Covid hit with a 103 degree fever - hunt was over. I assumed I missed, yet with this new information I'm questioning myself and use of VLDs (thicker jackets for hunting).

My PH shared of several VLD failures on Kudu, Wildebeest, etc. No animal reaction, no blood trail, etc. They no longer permit VLDs. Rather they recommend and stock Hornady ELDs etc - basically any accurate tipped bullet for just this reason.

I've had great success with TSXs - but not cutting edge accuracy.

Can anyone else validate this concern? Should I go back to the drawing board and develop loads with only tipped bullets (ELD-X)?

 

[Tiny Tim]

I've used several hollow point bullets, both in rifles and handguns, monos and cup and core. If the tips are not plugged, they work as advertised. I've seen tips fall out and jam up an AR. I wouldn't worry about it. I have gone back and forth over the years and now use about 50/50 tipped and hollow point. We have better bullets and selections than ever. Pick one that has the properties you desire and shoot/hunt with confidence.

 

[Marcf44a300]

I've used several hollow point bullets, both in rifles and handguns, monos and cup and core. If the tips are not plugged, they work as advertised. I've seen tips fall out and jam up an AR. I wouldn't worry about it. I have gone back and forth over the years and now use about 50/50 tipped and hollow point. We have better bullets and selections than ever. Pick one that has the properties you desire and shoot/hunt with confidence.

Copy! I thought I had that in the VLDs - then the wounding / penciling issue rose its head.

 

[FEENIX]

 

[FEENIX]

A couple weeks ago there was a post about VLDs failing to open - rather "penciled" through game causing long tracking or lost animals. I'm familiar with handgun hollow points being clogged and not opening, but with rifle velocities, RPMs, pressure I had a hard time believing this. I called Berger (VLDs) and Barnes (TSX). Both confirmed the need for some hydraulic fluid/tissue to enter the nose cavity to create expansion. Any manufacturing bur/defect, bent nose, dirt, pulp from a twig will cause the bullet to fail to open. Some suggest clearing the nose cavity with a small diameter drill by hand. Still this seems totally crazy to have to do this.

My African PH was recently in town. We talked bullets - I shared that I had great accuracy (7mm and 300 WM) with VLDs. Other outfitters are having good long-range elk success with 190-210 VLDs at 2,900 fps.

I shared a 200 yrd mule deer hit/miss with my 7mm VLD. Call both shots as hits - did not see rock / dirt chips from a miss. Heard hits. No reaction from the deer - he stood - looked - bounded off. No blood, no indication of a hit or wounded animal - 30 min later Covid hit with a 103 degree fever - hunt was over. I assumed I missed, yet with this new information I'm questioning myself and use of VLDs (thicker jackets for hunting).

My PH shared of several VLD failures on Kudu, Wildebeest, etc. No animal reaction, no blood trail, etc. They no longer permit VLDs. Rather they recommend and stock Hornady ELDs etc - basically any accurate tipped bullet for just this reason.

I've had great success with TSXs - but not cutting edge accuracy.

Can anyone else validate this concern? Should I go back to the drawing board and develop loads with only tipped bullets (ELD-X)?

@FURMAN

 

[wvbearhunter]

I havent used the VLDs on game but wonder if a shoulder shot would be a better option if its clogging? That should get them to flattening. Ive never had a Barnes TSX or TTSX fail to expand

 

[memtb]

A couple weeks ago there was a post about VLDs failing to open - rather "penciled" through game causing long tracking or lost animals. I'm familiar with handgun hollow points being clogged and not opening, but with rifle velocities, RPMs, pressure I had a hard time believing this. I called Berger (VLDs) and Barnes (TSX). Both confirmed the need for some hydraulic fluid/tissue to enter the nose cavity to create expansion. Any manufacturing bur/defect, bent nose, dirt, pulp from a twig will cause the bullet to fail to open. Some suggest clearing the nose cavity with a small diameter drill by hand. Still this seems totally crazy to have to do this.

My African PH was recently in town. We talked bullets - I shared that I had great accuracy (7mm and 300 WM) with VLDs. Other outfitters are having good long-range elk success with 190-210 VLDs at 2,900 fps.

I shared a 200 yrd mule deer hit/miss with my 7mm VLD. Call both shots as hits - did not see rock / dirt chips from a miss. Heard hits. No reaction from the deer - he stood - looked - bounded off. No blood, no indication of a hit or wounded animal - 30 min later Covid hit with a 103 degree fever - hunt was over. I assumed I missed, yet with this new information I'm questioning myself and use of VLDs (thicker jackets for hunting).

My PH shared of several VLD failures on Kudu, Wildebeest, etc. No animal reaction, no blood trail, etc. They no longer permit VLDs. Rather they recommend and stock Hornady ELDs etc - basically any accurate tipped bullet for just this reason.

I've had great success with TSXs - but not cutting edge accuracy.

Can anyone else validate this concern? Should I go back to the drawing board and develop loads with only tipped bullets (ELD-X)?

I am very biased in my opinion of buggers (Bergers) for hunting of any larger, thicker skinned, larger boned big game animals…..for the opposite reason of their failing to expand!

The hollow-point failing to open has plagued defense handgun rounds for many years and is aggressively addressed by several manufacturer.

Yes somewhat apples and oranges…..or is it. The handgun bullets, while having a much larger opening, were often "plugged-up" but thick clothing or a coat or jacket…..failing to open/expend much lie the buggers!

Hornady addressed this issue in their Critical Defense ammunition. While not exactly a "tipped" bullet as we think of in rifle ammunition….it was effective in getting more reliable expansion!

If a tip we're added to the buggers…..perhaps they could achieve a 100% success on bullets fragmenting after a high velocity impact!

Let the hate mail and death threats begin! memtb

 

[Marcf44a300]

I am very biased in my opinion of buggers (Bergers) for hunting of any larger, thicker skinned, larger boned big game animals…..for the opposite reason of their failing to expand!

The hollow-point failing to open has plagued defense handgun rounds for many years and is aggressively addressed by several manufacturer.

Yes somewhat apples and oranges…..or is it. The handgun bullets, while having a much larger opening, were often "plugged-up" but thick clothing or a coat or jacket…..failing to open/expend much lie the buggers!

Hornady addressed this issue in their Critical Defense ammunition. While not exactly a "tipped" bullet as we think of in rifle ammunition….it was effective in getting more reliable expansion!

If a tip we're added to the buggers…..perhaps they could achieve a 100% success on bullets fragmenting after a high velocity impact!

Let the hate mail and death threats begin! memtb

Appreciate your points. Given varying professional experiences it would seem that in todays world a tip or filler of some kind in the cavity would put the issue to bed.

 

[memtb]

You are a very tolerant gentleman…..I thought that the first response would be in the form of a death threat! memtb

 

[FURMAN]

@FURMAN

LOL! Thanks for dragging me into the hornets nest. Queue the broken record. I will not reply in this thread I am too old to deal with people telling me the things I have seen as many times as I have seen are not true. If someone wants more info pm me. I seriously have lost track of the number of animals we have shot with cup and core bullets. I have NEVER seen one fail to expand. I have NEVER seen one "splash" or expand too quickly. Some are better than others but they all put animals down quicker than bonded bullets on average. In every instance of conversation I have been involved in where one individual was complaining of poor performance the animal was not recovered and therefore point of impact unknown. I don't know how you blame a bullet if you don't even know if the hit was a lethal hit. Specific to the OP my trips to Africa have left the PHs impressed with bullet performance. Usually with a Berger the jacket sheds and fragments destroying vitals so violently the animal often does not run. Also in many cases the lead core will exit which is what I assume people are confusing with "penciling". The ELDM acts very much like a Berger. The ELDx seems to expand a little quicker but also hold together better(which I don't think is a good thing). I have never been able to get an ELDx to shoot to my expectations accuracy wise. All of the previous statements are generations as impact velocity and the specific situation will affect performance. I continue to test new bullets as they are introduced. To date the quickest killing bullet I have used is the 215 Berger. If I were going to Africa and was sure I would not shoot past 100 yards I would strongly consider Barnes but that is not what I want from my hunts. I align with long range friendly PHs and shoot Berger.


I am going to add this separate paragraph in response to another post. We have been testing the pointed Bergers and whitetail and the idea that they will pencil because the tip "won't open" is unfounded. What we are seeing from them is not much different than any other cup and core. The are going in about 2-4" and then fragmenting. I would say on average they are fragmenting more than an open tip. It seems as if the portion of the bullet with no lead is collapsing rapidly and then violently expanding. On average they seem to be putting deer down even more quickly than other bullets with roughly the same or slightly less meat damage.

 

[FEENIX]

LOL! Thanks for dragging me into the hornets nest. Queue the broken record. I will not reply in this thread I am too old to deal with people telling me the things I have seen as many times as I have seen are not true. If someone wants more info pm me. I seriously have lost track of the number of animals we have shot with cup and core bullets. I have NEVER seen one fail to expand. I have NEVER seen one "splash" or expand too quickly. Some are better than others but they all put animals down quicker than bonded bullets on average. In every instance of conversation I have been involved in where one individual was complaining of poor performance the animal was not recovered and therefore point of impact unknown. I don't know how you blame a bullet if you don't even know if the hit was a lethal hit. Specific to the OP my trips to Africa have left the PHs impressed with bullet performance. Usually with a Berger the jacket sheds and fragments destroying vitals so violently the animal often does not run. Also in many cases the lead core will exit which is what I assume people are confusing with "penciling". The ELDM acts very much like a Berger. The ELDx seems to expand a little quicker but also hold together better(which I don't think is a good thing). I have never been able to get an ELDx to shoot to my expectations accuracy wise. All of the previous statements are generations as impact velocity and the specific situation will affect performance. I continue to test new bullets as they are introduced. To date the quickest killing bullet I have used is the 215 Berger. If I were going to Africa and was sure I would not shoot past 100 yards I would strongly consider Barnes but that is not what I want from my hunts. I align with long range friendly PHs and shoot Berger.

LL, sorry about that; I knew about your group's success in your African Safaris. I do not blame you for not responding specifically.

 

[Hugnot]

I have used Barnes TSX bullets and like them.

I think the expansion situation might be related to the size of the meplat or hollow point. As the point or meplat increases in diameter the ballistic efficiency will decrease thus the VLD bullets with tiny openings or pointy meplats. Pointy bullets having plastic points always seem to expand, the pointy plastic tip above an empty area is driven into the empty area initiating expansion. Some VLD bullets might also have thicker jackets and during the bullet forming process work hardening might occur making the bullet more resistant to expansion. I have heard that some shooters anneal bullets. I have seen some VLD bullets that show surface lines that run parallel to bullet point, these might be stress fractures formed at right angles to compressive forces when the bullet was formed. Core hardness might also be an expansion factor, antimony is commonly added to lead to increase hardness.

A favorite bullet is the 6.5 107 grain Sierra MK. This is a pointy hollow point bullet and about 1/4 the length of the bullet at the front end is void (empty). These bullet zip right thru larger rodents like 8 pounds (rodent safaris) when driven from a 6.5-06. I have recovered some of these on top of soft dirt at extended ranges that were bent into L shapes. This bullet has a relatively thin jacket & soft core.

I won't use plastic tip bullets in my AR fearing that the little plastic tips might go adrift and jam things up.

All the above is from a shooter that has only shot a few deers but most of these have been big ones weighing over 250 pounds. I shoot rodents and am no safari type bullet expert. Rodent bullets of choice have plastic tips.

Bullet shown is a .257, 100 grain TSX from .25 Souper that went thru 3 feet of deer at 367 yards.

 

[Tiny Tim]

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Bout time. Lol

 

[RockyMtnUT]

Interested/following.