I learned something from that 500 vs a 1000 yards

[straightshooter]

I own a savage 10 fp 308, I have a bell carlson stock on it, and topped it with a swaf ss 10 power scope. This rifle can shoot one hole groups with the stock barrel but on average I would call it a 3/4 inch rifle. I know that when I pull the trigger on a cold bore shot, that every bullet will go into that 3/4 inch group. I know that my scope is repeatable and dependable and will hold its zero. This is my introduction, practice rifle into long range hunting. I knew that I needed to practice a lot to get my skill level to where I needed to be. I wanted a caliber that was cheap to reload and I could use for hunting. Sound like a lot of other newbies looking into long range right (what rifle should I get that cost below $1000.00 and what caliber to start?). Let me just say now that I love my little 308, all though I call it a 3/4 inch rifle, I have shot many one hole groups and the majority of the time the rifle will cloverleaf. I only shoot prone from a bipod, and I have access to reach out as far as I want (I live in the Mojave desert).

Now the reality. I have an accurate target rifle that is heavy, in a short action that limits its growth potential. I like heavy rifles for hunting, but every time I have owned a heavy rifle it has been a magnum caliber. The 308 is great for practice, it is cheap to shoot and would make a great deer gun. At its weight though I really don't want to use it as a carry rifle, with it being a 308 I don't see using it as a long range elk rig. My plan was to turn it into a 300 wsm when I was ready. Now that I have some experience I know that the long mags are better for long range shooting and the ultra mags are that much better. I have no options past the 300 wsm.

What does this have to do with 500 vs 1000 yards. For the new guy. You are not going to want a 300wsm for 1000 yard hunting for anything bigger than deer. If you have a short action you won't have as many options. Even if you want a short action caliber get it in a long action rifle. You will be upgrading more than you realize. It will be cheaper to get the long action to build on than to buy a whole new custom rifle.

You are going to want to think a custom rifle build backwards. You will be changing almost everything, being left with nothing but the action, so start there. It will be expensive in the end so really think if you want to reach out to 1000 yards. A 1000 yard rifle is very specialized. It is a big overbore caliber, long and to heavy to carry all day. Or you can take old Betsy and accurize it to reach out as far as the ballistics will allow. You wont have to change your hunting style and you will be able to reach out further than you will need for more than 99% of all kill shots taken.

I am at the point of rethink my long range hunting. Do I want to hunt in a ambush stile with a specialized expensive heavy custom rifle or do I want to get a 300 winchester magnum, have it accurized and go. I've come to realize that I will be having to change my hunting style if I go with the 1000 yard rig and spend a lot more money. I think back to all my hunting in the past 30 years and ask how many times have I had a long shot that I could have taken if I had the skill?????

Next to come...what rifle help!!!

 

[angus-5024]

I dont think that you have to shoot a heavy, heavy rifle for 1000 yards. I personally have never taken game at, nor am I ready to take game at 1000 yards, but I use a .338 RUM in sporter weight with a brake and can shoot it prone no problem out to 1000 with near exceptable groups. When the weather is good I can do well our to 650, and this is my first year LR hunting.
Depending on how you take recoil, I would try to go with the largest thing that you can handle in 12-13lbs scoped. Not to heavy not to light and it does what you want. 300 Ultra if you dont shoot it lots, .338 Ultra (edge would be better), .338 Lapua. This is if you want to go to 1000 yards+. otherwise I would go with a 7mm or something lighter recoiling.

JM

 

[straightshooter]

angus 50-24,

I think you and I are actually on the same page. I have learned that I don't need a specialized rig for my shooting/hunting rifle. I actually have 2 rifles, my second rifle is a Ruger hawkeye all weather 308. While I've been building up my Savage rifle, working on my shooting technique, and learning a whole lot more about reloading, I have also been tinkering with my Ruger. I bought the Ruger about a year earlier than the Savage and before I even considered long range hunting. When I first got the rifle it would shoot almost everything I loaded it with into a 1 1/4" group. The problem was I was getting flyers that opened the groups up to almost 3", the flyers where erratic, happening anytime from the first shot to the 5th (I only shoot 4 to 5 round groups).

When I started getting into long range hunting I found this forum and read a lot and asked questions. I decided my Ruger just wasn't going to cut it, so along came the Savage. I ignored advice on caliber though figuring I could always upgrade to the 300wsm when ready. Well guess what, through my tinkering with the Ruger I have it shooting consistent 3/4" groups with a few 1 1/4" groups in there. I believe those larger groups are all shooter error. I now realize that the Ruger would have done everything that my Savage is doing for me right now as far as learning and practicing. I have an excellent hunting rifle in that little Ruger and I am definitely a control round feed guy. I love both my rifles, but when I decide what direction I am going to go as far as long range hunting, it will be the Savage that gets sold or traded. So in the long run it was a waste of money getting the Savage (anyone want to trade a stainless Ruger hawkeye magnum rifle for a semi custom Savage 10fp that is a real tact driver).

My whole point with this post was that you don't need an expensive, long, heavy, custom rifle to reach out to 500 yards or maybe a bit farther and cover 99% of all hunting shots taken. Read the post titled something like "beware of the budget rifle". This is an excellent artical for those just getting into long range. Take old Betsy and accurize her a bit. My Ruger cost me $25 to get it shooting. The problem was the stock pressure under the barrel. I free floated the barrel myself since Rugers are not floated. The first efforts didn't help so I spent the $25 on a trigger job that it needed anyway to try and take me out of the equation. That didn't help either. I watch a video on accurizing a rifle. The instructor said to tap the bottom of the stock with your hand and if the stock bops the barrel open it up some more. I floated under the barrel quite a bit and well la, no more flyers.

The other side of the post though is the point that if you get into long range shooting and get addicted to it like I am, you will want the best money can buy. I am now looking at getting something like a 338 edge in caliber, and my Savage can never get me there, so again a waste of money.

 

[bigngreen]

I've seen a couple guy's on here have a 338Edge on a Savage short action, and they swap back and forth. From what I read you single load and you can extract an empty case but you have to pull the bolt to extract a loaded round, not a real big deal considering what you get.
I've kinda thought of doing it myself with my model 12, shoot a cheep low recoil round, like the 308 or 300wsm, for the bulk of your practice to keep you sharp then spin on the Edge and shoot it for some practice and hunting, simple.gun)

 

[specweldtom]

The .300 WSM bolt face will work with the Edge, but the .308 Win bolt face is too small. If you do a switch-barrel, you'll need a bolt that will handle both cartridges, or maybe two bolts if you stick with the .308 Win.

Good luck, Tom

 

[straightshooter]

Thanks guys for the input. When I first got into long range shooting about the only thing that I planned that turned out right was buying the savage rifle. It is very accurate and cheaper to upgrade (you can do a lot of the work yourself). Did I mention that it is very accurate. All I have done to my Savage so far is adjust the trigger myself, by a Bell and Carlson stock for it, and work up some hand loads. This rifle really shoots even with the stock barrel. My advice to the new guy would be to really give the Savages a look, user friendly, strong, accurate, versatile, and probably cheaper in the long run.

The problem is that as a guy gets to learn more about long range shooting, and starts upgrading it is very hard not to want that little more, little more accuracy, little better quality, little more reach, etc. etc. That is where these posts are coming from. I have learned that my excitement to get into long range shooting caused me to make some clouded decisions.

The biggest thing was cost. How do I afford to get into long range shooting, and achieve better accuracy. I suggest that you read the article on this forum titled something like "Beware of the budget rifle". My advice to the new guy is look into the gun safe and pull out one of the rifles that you already have and get it accurized a bit. I am not talking the full custom new barrel action tune etc. I am talking, get the trigger done, bed the action, float the barrel, and really clean the thing. You will get the most advance from getting out there and shooting, save your money for bullets.

That brings me to my next point. You will save money and gain accuracy with an investment in reloading your own custom ammo. If you shoot factory ammo you are probably leaving something on the table. I tune my loads to the 10th of a grain and within the thousandths of an inch seating depth. Every rifle is different and reloading gives you more options as well as save money in the long run.

Military rounds in my mind are the way to go for a practice caliber. They tend to be cheaper to shoot and in the beginning it is all about getting out there and shooting, not making little holes. I have improved my shooting technique, learned what my rifle likes to shoot, learned how to reload for accuracy, created a drop chart for my rifle, learned to dial in windage better (this is always a learning process). etc., etc. Just get out there and shoot, you will then start to get an idea what type of rifle you will need, what caliber you want and how to get it shooting in the shortest amount of time.

Yes I could use my short action Savage to build a 338 edge on, but honestly I just don't want to. I want a dedicated rig for the job at hand, designed specifically to shoot those long ranges. I am shooting a short action 308 and now am trying to decide do I sell both of my 308s and buy a 223 for practice and build a 338 edge, or sell just one rifle and keep my 308 for practice.

 

[RMulhern]

As I read these postings it's highly obvious that there are a lot of 'newbies' attempting to 'break into' the game of long range shooting. Nothing wrong with that; everybody has to start somewhere! Over a long period of time, many years of shooting competition and hunting it's been my observation that way too many people 'over-caliber' themselves and in the process develop bad habits which are extremely difficult to correct. MARKSMANSHIP and adhering to a set of ironclad rules thereof which are non-yielding in nature are THE MOST IMPORTANT aspect of the game of shooting rifles; especially at ranges out to 1000 yards and beyond!! Marksmanship consist basically of 4 basic things: POSITION, SIGHT ALIGNMENT, TRIGGER CONTROL, AND MENTAL ATTITUDE! It won't be of any benefit to any prospective shooter if any one of those 4 things are omitted or not mastered! A specific 'mangle-ham' caliber is only going to perform to the degree to which the owner thereof has spent adequate time training with it. One could spend $2.00 per bullet but that expensive bullet isn't going to do any good at all if all it's going to do is 'blow air' by the target....whether the target be a 10 ring at 1000 yards or a standing elk at that distance! Over the past 50 years or so I have been fortunate to have worked with and trained hundreds of new shooters and I have trained the vast majority of all those I have worked with by starting them out with the .308 Winchester cartridge! In my opinion it is the most accurate cartridge within the .30 caliber family...bar none! I shot International style Palma events for years which requires the .308 Winchester cartridge to be used by all competitors and I have seen great Palma shooters shoot consistent groups from 1000 yards that would hold vertical dispersion no greater than 5" which is 1/2 the diameter of the X ring on the LR Palma target! The shooter that I remember well that first did this for me when I was coaching was Nancy Gallagher Tompkins from Prescott, Arizona. I might add also that was shooting aperture sights; no scopes allowed! In short...for those that want to learn the art of long range shooting you will not hinder yourself by selecting the .308 Winchester cartridge to 'cut your teeth upon'!! Once you've spent enough time learning the 4 basic rules of marksmanship as listed above.....you then can give serious consideration to advancing to a cartridge that will deliver more energy for hunting such as elk or whatever!!

GOOD LUCK!

 

[straightshooter]

Sharpsman, I just read your comments, and I couldn't agree with you more!!! I have been at this long range shooting for a few years now, and I just have never had to take a hunting shot past 200 yards yet. I started out with a 308 winchester for my practice, but I didn't make any huge steps forward till I stepped down to a 223, which allowed me to get out shooting more often. The main key to any of my success, has been due to my love of shooting. I like to practice. I get up at 5:00 so I can load everything up and be out to my shooting area by 6:00. I do this to get out before others get there, and so I don't cut into family time. I do an hour or two of shooting every week, then get back in time to wake my wife with a coffee. This consistent shooting has developed my skill more than shooting longer periods of time only once a month.

I have another post up right now about building my next rifle. At this point I want to step up to a large game hunting caliber. If you read that post, you will see that I am looking to take what would seem to most, a half step up. I am considering moving back up to the 308 or a 284 winchester. At these calibers I still feel a will cover 95% of all my hunting shots, and I will still be able to get out and practice once a week.

 

[Elkmen]

I am really new guy on the forum and am all ready overwhelmed with information. I am OK on gun and caliber (from my perspective) and have already made several big game kills past 400 yards. Where I am wanting to go is out to the 600 yard distance but am lacking the technical information for those shots. For instance:

How far out do earth spin issues start. How does one compensate?
Moving left or right and how much? Where is that info available?

What is recommended as a good simple range finder without a screen full of stuff. I did not mean cheap I mean simple!

I have been using Ballistic program outputs (field adjusted) and set up for different elevations. Are there any reasonable priced hand carried calculators out there that is possible for a layman to use without 50 hours of training.?

I am sure that I will have more questions as I think of them!

thank you all for your help!!!

 

[liltank]

Have you seen this article yet?

How Do I Know What To Buy?

Just thought I would put this out there. It was to help with this very conversation for the guys wanting to start out, but not necessarily knowing what to do.

Tank

 

[yobuck]

for 600 yard shots id suggest you buy something like a 7 rem.mag.
put on a good scope like say a 4x12 .
get one with target knobs of some type.
best to have a muzzel brake because they do kick a little.
practice with the thing untill your very comfortable with it.
go find a place where you can shoot at rocks at 600 yards.
forget about earth rotation and all the other b.s.
a rangefinder would be helpfull but not necessary at 600 with a 7 mag. just hold a little high.
you will soon find you can easily hit those 600 yd rocks and you will be looking for 700 yard rocks.

 

[barthmonster]

Sold another rifle to get started shooting Long-Range (600, then 1000) with the idea of possible hunting at those ranges after the practice (much !)

Anything wrong with choosing a Savage 12 P/TR in .308 to start out ?? The scope is a Burris Signature 6-24x44 and I'm going to have Burris put on Target-Turrets. I've heard they'll do that for $80...

 

[liltank]

Sold another rifle to get started shooting Long-Range (600, then 1000) with the idea of possible hunting at those ranges after the practice (much !)

Anything wrong with choosing a Savage 12 P/TR in .308 to start out ?? The scope is a Burris Signature 6-24x44 and I'm going to have Burris put on Target-Turrets. I've heard they'll do that for $80...

Nothing wrong with that set up at all. Go for it. 308 is a great caliber for learning how to shoot long range and wind calling. There is a lot of data out there to really get ya confused, but it all helps to make you grow as a shooter.

Tank

 

[RDM416]

Ditto what Sharpsman said, great reply along with several others who have commented.

A couple of things to add..... I have found that as my ability and equipment have improved over several years that I just naturally progressed to hunting differently. When setting up a whitetail stand I will chose to sit over crop fields where I can see a lot of edge cover, previously I would have chosen to sit somewhere else...... The same when elk hunting. I have gradually changed the way I hunt as my effective range has extended. Still, most of my kills come it at moderate ranges (under 400) but I find it greatly expands my opportunities to be able to shoot further.

The other thing........ Like others have said the 308 is a great starter round and you don't have to spend a lot of money to get to 500 or 600 yards. BUT, when you get ready to start reaching out to 1000 or so on game animals, things change (IMHO). At those ranges, good optics become a necessity as well as a good rangefinder, along with a lot of other goodies. At 1000 yards it is very difficult to get an accurate range on a critter even with a Swarovski ($1000) rangefinder. A rifle that will shoot 1 moa is fine, but at 1000 yards the BEST that rifle will do is 10". Add wind and all the other variables that come with trying to make a first shot kill. That makes a 1000 yard shot on a whitetail sized critter pretty minimal at best with a 1 moa rifle.

Start out with what you have, .308 or whatever and see just how addicted you get to the sport. By the time you work your way out to game animals at 1000 yards you will likely have invested several years and LOTS of coin.