How to measure and identify 280A.I. brass?

[SavageHunter11]

This past weekend at my local gun show I purchased 165 pieces of cleaned and primed 280A.I. brass for $20. Of those 165 pieces, 84 of them were Nosler "280 Ackley Improved" and the rest were Remington branded headstamped. I know that there is a traditional and SAAMI spec for the 280A.I., my question is there a way I can measure them with a caliper to determine which I have? I think many of you will jump to the conclusion that I had initially in that I possess SAAMI spec brass because of the Nosler headstamps BUT....last night while measuring every piece with a caliper I noticed the Nosler brass seem to fit the 2.1884" (bottom of case to the top of the shoulder) spec of the traditional chambering while the Remington seemed more to match the 2.174" SAAMI chambering. This seems backwards to what I would have expected to find and thus my confusion. However, I will say that finding the top of the shoulder for the measurement was kinda vague and 0.0144" difference is very small and as there was no hard corner to measure off of and everything had a slight rounded radius to it. Is there another technique I can use to measure this brass to know for sure? I tried finding a chamber gauge but was unsuccessful and meanwhile stumbled across an article (linked below) that showed both types of 280A.I. chamberings and Go-gauges switched between each other which made no difference having me think I could be worrying for nothing. Thank you for your help and suggestions in advance.


Link to the article I mentioned with a quote from said article:
https://gunsmithtalk.wordpress.com/2012/07/17/280-ackley-improved-emperical-headspace-test/

"Once I had both chambers cut I swapped the gauges expecting to see some obvious disparity as the reamer makers have been emphatic that there is a difference. However, there was no difference between the two chambers."

 

[BeaverHunter]

This past weekend at my local gun show I purchased 165 pieces of cleaned and primed 280A.I. brass for $20. Of those 165 pieces, 84 of them were Nosler "280 Ackley Improved" and the rest were Remington branded headstamped. I know that there is a traditional and SAAMI spec for the 280A.I., my question is there a way I can measure them with a caliper to determine which I have? I think many of you will jump to the conclusion that I had initially in that I possess SAAMI spec brass because of the Nosler headstamps BUT....last night while measuring every piece with a caliper I noticed the Nosler brass seem to fit the 2.1884" (bottom of case to the top of the shoulder) spec of the traditional chambering while the Remington seemed more to match the 2.174" SAAMI chambering. This seems backwards to what I would have expected to find and thus my confusion. However, I will say that finding the top of the shoulder for the measurement was kinda vague and 0.0144" difference is very small and as there was no hard corner to measure off of and everything had a slight rounded radius to it. Is there another technique I can use to measure this brass to know for sure? I tried finding a chamber gauge but was unsuccessful and meanwhile stumbled across an article (linked below) that showed both types of 280A.I. chamberings and Go-gauges switched between each other which made no difference having me think I could be worrying for nothing. Thank you for your help and suggestions in advance.


Link to the article I mentioned with a quote from said article:
https://gunsmithtalk.wordpress.com/2012/07/17/280-ackley-improved-emperical-headspace-test/

"Once I had both chambers cut I swapped the gauges expecting to see some obvious disparity as the reamer makers have been emphatic that there is a difference. However, there was no difference between the two chambers."

Hell of a deal for $20 if they will fit your gun. Especially the Nosler pieces. Good score

 

[SavageHunter11]

Hell of a deal for $20 if they will fit your gun. Especially the Nosler pieces. Good score

That's why i bought them regardless of knowing the chambering. Really hard to pass up a deal that good.

 

[Hand Skills]

Put a piece of masking tape on the case head. See if it will chamber.

Im always leery of second hand brass as following mfg instructions (RCBS) can lead to a die setup that sizes brass too short (much shoulder bump).

If you have a situation where you can put two layers of masking tape on the back of your case and close the bolt without resistance I would think strongly about jamming your bullets into the lands to Fireform those cases to your chamber.

Just because the two chambers are identical doesn't mean people size their brass properly, lol.

 

[SavageHunter11]

Put a piece of masking tape on the case head. See if it will chamber.

Im always leery of second hand brass as following mfg instructions (RCBS) can lead to a die setup that sizes brass too short (much shoulder bump).

If you have a situation where you can put two layers of masking tape on the back of your case and close the bolt without resistance I would think strongly about jamming your bullets into the lands to Fireform those cases to your chamber.

Just because the two chambers are identical doesn't mean people size their brass properly, lol.

I would but I don't have my rifle for 280A.I. yet. I actually just ordered the action and barrel yesterday from NSS and I'll be ordering the stock from Manners today. If there's no other way to test it I will wait a couple months until it's built and try it out with your technique. Thank you for the suggestion.

 

[Dmagna]

Just be aware that nosler makes 2 different 280 ai brass. One comes from their loaded ammo and one from their custom brass. The loaded ammo brass is stamped "NOS" and the regular stuff is stamped "nosler". They have different case capacities

 

[SavageHunter11]

Just be aware that nosler makes 2 different 280 ai brass. One comes from their loaded ammo and one from their custom brass. The loaded ammo brass is stamped "NOS" and the regular stuff is stamped "nosler". They have different case capacities

What I bought is stamped "Nosler, 280 Ackley Improved". Why would Nosler have different case capacities for loaded ammo and new unfired brass? From a manufacturing standpoint it doesn't make much sense to buy tooling to make two essentially identical cases with the slightest of differences. I am not saying you are incorrect I just wonder where the information came from for my own curiosity.

 

[Alibiiv]

What I bought is stamped "Nosler, 280 Ackley Improved". Why would Nosler have different case capacities for loaded ammo and new unfired brass? From a manufacturing standpoint it doesn't make much sense to buy tooling to make two essentially identical cases with the slightest of differences. I am not saying you are incorrect I just wonder where the information came from for my own curiosity.

My question is, "Why would Nosler differentiate from the Traditional .280 Ackley Improved wildcat by making their SAAMI brass .140 thousandths of an inch shorter than the traditional round and creating all of this confusion?" What they've done does not make any sense at all. There's a thread that was posted on here a couple of days ago, "What would you do" try looking at this one. The OP bought a rifle used, new unfired, bought some .280 Ackley Improved Redding dies, reloads and tries shooting his ammunition only to have numerous FTFs. He's seeking advise and trouble shooting, yet with this rifle he doesn't know if he has the SAAMI chambering or the Traditional chambering. He called the gunsmith who told him that he chambered the build with the "traditional" reamer. And....if he does have the Traditional .280Ai, what doe he do with the SAAMI dies that he has money in? It would make life a whole lot easier if there was a1/8th inch difference, however .014 thousandths is not a whole lot of difference.

 

[Alibiiv]

This past weekend at my local gun show I purchased 165 pieces of cleaned and primed 280A.I. brass for $20. Of those 165 pieces, 84 of them were Nosler "280 Ackley Improved" and the rest were Remington branded headstamped. I know that there is a traditional and SAAMI spec for the 280A.I., my question is there a way I can measure them with a caliper to determine which I have? I think many of you will jump to the conclusion that I had initially in that I possess SAAMI spec brass because of the Nosler headstamps BUT....last night while measuring every piece with a caliper I noticed the Nosler brass seem to fit the 2.1884" (bottom of case to the top of the shoulder) spec of the traditional chambering while the Remington seemed more to match the 2.174" SAAMI chambering. This seems backwards to what I would have expected to find and thus my confusion. However, I will say that finding the top of the shoulder for the measurement was kinda vague and 0.0144" difference is very small and as there was no hard corner to measure off of and everything had a slight rounded radius to it. Is there another technique I can use to measure this brass to know for sure? I tried finding a chamber gauge but was unsuccessful and meanwhile stumbled across an article (linked below) that showed both types of 280A.I. chamberings and Go-gauges switched between each other which made no difference having me think I could be worrying for nothing. Thank you for your help and suggestions in advance.


Link to the article I mentioned with a quote from said article:
https://gunsmithtalk.wordpress.com/2012/07/17/280-ackley-improved-emperical-headspace-test/

"Once I had both chambers cut I swapped the gauges expecting to see some obvious disparity as the reamer makers have been emphatic that there is a difference. However, there was no difference between the two chambers."

I would suggest going to this link, from the same source, only there is an illustration in the article that shows the differentiation between the two cartridges. Please note that I went to your posted link, it looks the same, however with the link that you posted it did not have the illustration comparing dimensions of the two cases, SAAMI and the Traditional wildcat. I'm really not too sure about the uTube in your link, I've seen it before and have also read where some other posters refute the video. Try this one, the print is small where the article makes the comparison, however it is doable.

https://gunsmithtalk.wordpress.com/2010/01/13/280-ackley-improved-alert

 

[SavageHunter11]

My question is, "Why would Nosler differentiate from the Traditional .280 Ackley Improved wildcat by making their SAAMI brass .140 thousandths of an inch shorter than the traditional round and creating all of this confusion?" What they've done does not make any sense at all. There's a thread that was posted on here a couple of days ago, "What would you do" try looking at this one. The OP bought a rifle used, new unfired, bought some .280 Ackley Improved Redding dies, reloads and tries shooting his ammunition only to have numerous FTFs. He's seeking advise and trouble shooting, yet with this rifle he doesn't know if he has the SAAMI chambering or the Traditional chambering. He called the gunsmith who told him that he chambered the build with the "traditional" reamer. And....if he does have the Traditional .280Ai, what doe he do with the SAAMI dies that he has money in? It would make life a whole lot easier if there was a1/8th inch difference, however .014 thousandths is not a whole lot of difference.

You can blame Remington and SAAMI for the reason that the new 280A.I. is shorter, not Nosler.


"...Nosler decided to bring the 280 Ackley Improved into their list of custom brass and rifles. In order to do this they wanted to take the 280 AI to SAAMI and have it standardized.
Part of the process of standardizing the cartridge was for Nosler to see if other manufacturers had worked with it. They found that Remington had been chambering the 280 in their custom shop. Now here is where the alert comes in. Remington's Custom Shop chose to shorten the headspace on the venerable design by .014″. When Nosler sent drawings to SAAMI they picked up that number as well.
So by a vote of the members of SAAMI the commercial established specifications for the 280 Ackley were changed from the original design. The reason reported for this change is that Remington believed it was necessary in order for factory 280 Remington ammunition to be fireformed safely in an Ackley chamber."

 

[SavageHunter11]

I would suggest going to this link, from the same source, only there is an illustration in the article that shows the differentiation between the two cartridges. Please note that I went to your posted link, it looks the same, however with the link that you posted it did not have the illustration comparing dimensions of the two cases, SAAMI and the Traditional wildcat. I'm really not too sure about the uTube in your link, I've seen it before and have also read where some other posters refute the video. Try this one, the print is small where the article makes the comparison, however it is doable.

https://gunsmithtalk.wordpress.com/2010/01/13/280-ackley-improved-alert

Great minds think alike haha. I just posted a quote from that article above and it's where I got my measurements last night

 

[Alibiiv]

You can blame Remington and SAAMI for the reason that the new 280A.I. is shorter, not Nosler.


"...Nosler decided to bring the 280 Ackley Improved into their list of custom brass and rifles. In order to do this they wanted to take the 280 AI to SAAMI and have it standardized.
Part of the process of standardizing the cartridge was for Nosler to see if other manufacturers had worked with it. They found that Remington had been chambering the 280 in their custom shop. Now here is where the alert comes in. Remington's Custom Shop chose to shorten the headspace on the venerable design by .014″. When Nosler sent drawings to SAAMI they picked up that number as well.
So by a vote of the members of SAAMI the commercial established specifications for the 280 Ackley were changed from the original design. The reason reported for this change is that Remington believed it was necessary in order for factory 280 Remington ammunition to be fireformed safely in an Ackley chamber."

What I read on this topic was that Nosler knew about the .014 thousandths difference before they started manufacturing, and went with the dimensions anyway. There's a lot of information on this mess out there. It really would have been good if everyone had followed suit with this one as it's only created a lot of confusion with the caliber.

 

[SavageHunter11]

What I read on this topic was that Nosler knew about the .014 thousandths difference before they started manufacturing, and went with the dimensions anyway. There's a lot of information on this mess out there. It really would have been good if everyone had followed suit with this one as it's only created a lot of confusion with the caliber.

I agree with you, however this is the mess we are in and there's no undoing it. I have my barrel being chambered in SAAMI spec, I plan to buy SAAMI spec dies and brass and just avoid anything that could possibly not be SAAMI spec. This brass was just too good of a deal at $0.12 a piece to pass up even if it turns out to not be SAAMI.

 

[Alibiiv]

I agree with you, however this is the mess we are in and there's no undoing it. I have my barrel being chambered in SAAMI spec, I plan to buy SAAMI spec dies and brass and just avoid anything that could possibly not be SAAMI spec. This brass was just too good of a deal at $0.12 a piece to pass up even if it turns out to not be SAAMI.

I agree you cannot unring the bell!! I totally agree with you, that was a fantastic score. Presently I am building a .270AI and looking at brass, it's not a cheap date by any means. I was going to order some Whidden hydroform dies and order them made from the blueprint of the reamer; there's a two to three month waiting period. After reading some of the problems that I have read about, I'm going to wait, mail three fireformed cases to Whidden and "then" have the dies made from the brass.