Hornady Concentricity Gauges?

[jmason]

I got one of these gizmos too. I haven't used it and don't know if I will. Just didn't want you to feel alone

Try it out and report back. Good or Bad you'll help some other guys out.

 

[pricedo]

I got one of these gizmos too. I haven't used it and don't know if I will. Just didn't want you to feel alone

Try it out and report back. Good or Bad you'll help some other guys out.

Yah..........my useless tool shelf has a few dust covered occupants from over the years that I "bit the gimmick hook" on. I can truly say that they all hit the intended target once.........MY WALLET.

I straightened a few cartridges out with the Hornady tool.........most of my ammo didn't need it but there were 3 or 4 approaching .005" of runout that I nudged back to under the .002" red-line of acceptability........possibly future "fliers" that I find so frustrating & irritating when they spoil a good group.

It's not a forceful bend perse......rather a gentle nudging perpendicular to the cartridge's longitudinal axis.

But without range results on the target paper it's all pure speculation at this point & no "expert/guru" is going to tell me he can prove/disprove a theory at first glance without first trying it at the range & seeing over time if the tool results in tighter groups/fewer annoying fliers.

Anxiously awaiting some from-the-range results.

 

[pricedo]

Lots of opinions about the tool based on conjecture & anecdotal "information".

Some dismiss the idea of taking corrective action in regards to runout out of hand.

I'm sure that many scoffed at the idea of a horseless carriage, a flying machine & going to the moon.

There will always be perpetual naysayers who won't even give a novel idea a fair trial.

Haven't seen any opinions based on results yet.

Just tested a few of boxes of Remington factory loads that are giving me "reasonable" groups at the range..........plenty accurate for big game hunting........some were OK (.002" or less runout) and some were over .005".

I'm going to straighten a couple of boxes out with the Hornady tool & leave a couple "as is" & compare the groups.

 

[nheninge]

WOW. 16 replies and 2400 views all with zero field data reported thus far since dec 2008??? Maybe there is a reason for the lack of "field data".... Maybe the hornady gizmo (certainly not a novel idea) just doesn't really matter all that much in the big picture. Maybe you can shoot better with 0.005 runout than I can with 0.001. So many other factors to consider. I had near perfect ammo today and had trouble even getting on paper due to inclement weather conditions.

Send us your field data, but I'll need a double blinded study with both positive and negative controls including ALL external factors controlled (weather, temp, humidity, altitude, distance, shooter to shooter variation, guns used, scopes, just to name a few ...) all data with sufficient statistical power, repetition and publication to make a clear choice. This is apparently necessary since all everyone seems to report is "conjecture & anecdotal information".

I don't use the tool because I don't like the thought of fixing mistakes at the end of my work (both fact and opinion). When we build a foundation for a house, we lay the concrete straight and true at the start (hopefully) and don't try to fix a crappy foundation with fancy carpentry. Same is true with reloads (this is my opinion).

I hope you can prove me a liar and tell me that all my time in the reloading shop has been wasted and I can stop all this mindless drabble and I can just build crappy ammo from the start and wave a magic hornady wand over them to make them perfect. Maybe we didn't answer your question directly, but 2400 other viewers over many months haven't either, so I believe (again my opinion) you have your answer... retrospectively.

 

[woods]

**** n, all this rain getting to ya?

I did one small test on straightened ammo vs unstraightened but I use the Bersin

that one flyer was a shot that went off the same time as a 30-378 (with muzzle brake) went off on the bench next to me. Shoulda timed it better.

Anyway my runout on the unstraightened ammo was .002" to .005" and the straightened ammo .002" or less. Not a big difference.

But I am like you in that I would rather load straight ammo to begin with and not rely on straightening it afterwards. And if I had it to do over again I would still have that money I spent on the Bersin.

 

[J E Custom]

"The overall concensus seems to be to prevent runout and not "fix it"."

Your concensus aside, the question is, "How well does the tool work?"

I am in the middle of a test to prove whether or not this or any other tool that actually
straitens out run-out is worthwhile.

I purchased the Hornady to see if it could save poorly loaded ammo (Like the factory stuff)
and some that did not come out very good for one reason or the other.

There is no doubt that concentric ammo will improve accuracy. How much is part of the test.

I loaded some ammo and sorted by amount of concentricity(Run-out) and took some of the
loads that were over .001, .002, and .003 and straitened them in groups of 3 from .001 to
.000 (If I could get them that close) and from .002 to .001, and .003 to .002 to see the
effects of truing them on SDs and groups.

I found some factory loads that were .006 to .008 out and found that is you try to true them
to much they will loosen the bullet grip of the case(Not Good).

Loading good ammo is the best cure for this problem but even with the best technique
sometimes they will have run-out, so the question is can you fix it ?

So my plan was/is to first sort to find the least run-out and use them for the long shots. Then
use the ones that are only .001 or .002 out for second or backup shots.

Then see if buy truing the stuff that is more than .002 out of true if it is usable.

I will tell you this the tool "WILL" true the ammo up close to .000 some times but not all ways
so I settled for anything under .001.

Whether the trued ammo will improve or match the performance of the loaded ammo that is
true after loading, remains to be seen.

I will post an unbiased report as soon as it is finished. and it does show if your loading
tekneek is poor like a lot of other tools will. but if will improve the ammo I want to know.


J E CUSTOM

 

[pricedo]

**** n, all this rain getting to ya?

I did one small test on straightened ammo vs unstraightened but I use the Bersin

that one flyer was a shot that went off the same time as a 30-378 (with muzzle brake) went off on the bench next to me. Shoulda timed it better.

Anyway my runout on the unstraightened ammo was .002" to .005" and the straightened ammo .002" or less. Not a big difference.

But I am like you in that I would rather load straight ammo to begin with and not rely on straightening it afterwards. And if I had it to do over again I would still have that money I spent on the Bersin.

At long last..........Thank You !!

I wasn't looking for a Shakespearean soliloquy or abstract philosophical dissertation....just some objective range reports on the effectiveness of the Hornady tool.

A picture or two is worth a thousand words.

The second (straightened) group in the photos is noticeably tighter than the first (unstraightened) group.

I'm into any action or equipment that can improve the accuracy of my ammo either before or after the reloading operation.

Thanks once again woods .....good info..........much appreciated.

 

[nheninge]

Nice post woods! Maybe the rain/weather is getting to me, but I generally look forward to the challenge of shooting in adverse conditions. It is what separates the men from the boys!

I guess I kind of felt attacked by certain "members" disrespecting other LRH'ers posting of opinions and conjecture or Shakespearean soliloquy or (hardly) abstract philosophical dissertation. I can certainly verify that 95% of what is posted on this (or any website) is just opinion. Interpret it as you will. Enjoy the social aspects. It is what we are all passionate about. It is why I am sitting at my computer right now. I love all the opinions, witty banter, and conjecture. Keep it coming. I learn from you guys every day.

But... I have seen very little "data" or even "field reports" that would stand up to even the most basic statistical test. Not to knock your work Woods (I'm with you), but, maybe you just shot better in the second group! This makes "your" conjecture more like fact and now people reading this post will think that the magic Hornady tool might/can shrink their groups. Maybe, maybe not. We all agree straighter ammo is likely to shoot smaller groups. However, if the members request data not based on "conjecture", then a statistical test is the only resolution. For members that don't understand the term conjecture, but use it in ignorance, I suggest wikipedia.

 

[mo]

I pose this question. My buddy I and sort our ammo in f-class .001 .002 together then we separate .003 and .004. We see no difference between them. I hit the x ring just as many times with .004 as I do with .001. The question, if you're seating your bullets 20 to 30 thousand in the rifling, and your chamber is cut perfect wouldn't your .004 run-out go to .000 or .001 chambered?

 

[pricedo]

I pose this question. My buddy I and sort our ammo in f-class .001 .002 together then we separate .003 and .004. We see no difference between them. I hit the x ring just as many times with .004 as I do with .001. The question, if you're seating your bullets 20 to 30 thousand in the rifling, and your chamber is cut perfect wouldn't your .004 run-out go to .000 or .001 chambered?

Seems that having a shorter leade or freebore tends to minimize the effects of misaligned bullets..........makes sense & apparently the theory proved out on the target paper.

Good information.

 

[Mikecr]

I pose this question. My buddy I and sort our ammo in f-class .001 .002 together then we separate .003 and .004. We see no difference between them. I hit the x ring just as many times with .004 as I do with .001. The question, if you're seating your bullets 20 to 30 thousand in the rifling, and your chamber is cut perfect wouldn't your .004 run-out go to .000 or .001 chambered?

Great questions.
Two campfires here, and they're barely within sight of each other:

1. Those who run with loose chambers and very high pressure loads. They Jam everything, FL size everything, neck turn nothing. These tend to be competitors using turn-key cartridges & guns.
2. Those who run with tight chambers and lower pressure loads. They put every effort into precise control over their loaded ammo. Again competitors, and varmint hunters, often using wildcat cartridges.

Hard not to argue for/against either, and they frequently banter in forums on a wide range of reloading subjects.
One of them is RUNOUT -vs- CONCENTRICITY, and their affects.
They are completely different, but definitions aside, they boil down to this:
-Concentric means a bullet points with case centerline. Bore centerline might be achieved provided headspace is zero and there is enough chamber clearance to prevent misalignments from runout. This means FL sized and jammed.
-Low runout means a loaded cartridge is straight, and concentric, independent of chambering. This is as good as you can do for rounds seated OFF the lands. But tighter clearances in every respect are in order to get bullets pointed down the bore centerline. It's more work for sure.

I don't believe it's easy to prove that either improved concentricity, or reduced runout, would always provide gains.
I'm sure it's easier to demonstrate otherwise.
Reason being, like all things in reloading/shooting, it's an abstract.

One guy shoot's great with weighed charges. Another shoots great without weighing charges.
Hell I work with a guy who's 30br banana's can clean my perfect 6br ammo's clock at 200yds.
Is it because my fitted necks and fitted coaxial throat, and TIR below .0005 are a bad thing?
Or because of our stocks, scopes, bullets, & barrels?
Could I convince him that he needs straighter ammo -like mine?
Not while he's cuttin ragged holes next to my daisies...

He jams & FL sizes,, No trimmer,, No scale,, yadda, yadda
I'd be ashamed to narrate my efforts!

 

[mo]

Mikecr I posted that question just for you. I was hoping to get your input on the subject. You have forgot more then I'll ever know when it comes to concentricity . I always like to read your post. Thanks