Ft.lbs - How Much Is Enough?

[elkaholic]

I shot the 150 ABLR in my 270 SS and found that at close range, they are like bombs, but I have no doubt that they would work well at mid to long range! And the LR does stand for Long Range

 

[bellabulldog]

If you're hitting vitals(both lungs or heart), it doesn't matter if the bullet expands or not. Maybe they might die 30 seconds faster if the bullet expands. Way too much fixation with numbers. Not enough fixation with shot placement.

 

[elkaholic]

If you're hitting vitals(both lungs or heart), it doesn't matter if the bullet expands or not. Maybe they might die 30 seconds faster if the bullet expands. Way too much fixation with numbers. Not enough fixation with shot placement.

I will have to dispute that. You may or may not kill an elk with an unexpanded bullet through the lungs? And if he does die, you may well wish the bullet expanded by the time you pack him our of the hole he ran in to!

 

[bellabulldog]

I will have to dispute that. You may or may not kill an elk with an unexpanded bullet through the lungs? And if he does die, you may well wish the bullet expanded by the time you pack him our of the hole he ran in to!

A bullet through a single lung is almost always a mortal wound. Single lung could/will run along ways, double lung won't go far.

 

[MagnumManiac]

If you're hitting vitals(both lungs or heart), it doesn't matter if the bullet expands or not. Maybe they might die 30 seconds faster if the bullet expands. Way too much fixation with numbers. Not enough fixation with shot placement.

I have shot and recovered sambar stags here with healed over bullet wounds in a lung/lungs, shoulder(s), hips and a few with lower leg injuries which obviously aren't fatal.
The worst was a wily old malform stag that had 4 Nosler 30 cal ballistic tips in one shoulder that had a full callous type encasement around each bullet that hadn't penetrated the bone, then the opposite shoulder had 2 27 cal unknown bullets as well as about an inch of arrow shaft and a broadhead that had only just passed through the shoulder bone.
How this stag had survived all those injuries must have been sheer luck.
I recovered a sambar hind with one lung so covered in scar tissue that the bullet wound must have got terribly infected, it had less than half of a working lung, but she showed no sign of being unhealthy.

There is plenty of evidence that a lung hit is completely survivable, even a double lung hit.

Cheers.

 

[bellabulldog]

I have shot and recovered sambar stags here with healed over bullet wounds in a lung/lungs, shoulder(s), hips and a few with lower leg injuries which obviously aren't fatal.
The worst was a wily old malform stag that had 4 Nosler 30 cal ballistic tips in one shoulder that had a full callous type encasement around each bullet that hadn't penetrated the bone, then the opposite shoulder had 2 27 cal unknown bullets as well as about an inch of arrow shaft and a broadhead that had only just passed through the shoulder bone.
How this stag had survived all those injuries must have been sheer luck.
I recovered a sambar hind with one lung so covered in scar tissue that the bullet wound must have got terribly infected, it had less than half of a working lung, but she showed no sign of being unhealthy.

There is plenty of evidence that a lung hit is completely survivable, even a double lung hit.

Cheers.

You can quote outlier events or consider this, prior to the invention of antibiotics a 2 inch deep puncture to the torso of a human was more than 90% fatal? I would be surprised if that is significantly different for four legged animals. You can probably find the crazy outlier events that contradict what I'm saying, but as a generalization I am correct.

I guess they couldn't kill animals without expanding bullets back in the day? I guess archery doesn't work? (can someone make a compelling argument as to how a broadhead arrow functions differently than a solid bullet?) I should clarify, grazing shots on vital organs don't count.

I've killed 3 cape buffalo with a 7x57 and some no name silver colored 175gr solids. All 150 yards or further away. They didn't go far and had similar results on a ton more stuff in Africa with a Ruger M77 7x57.

I guess the poachers up in Northern NM who use 22 Hornets and 223 Rems must all be doing head shots?

Expanding bullets conceivably help and I use them for most of my hunting. I still stand by my assertion that there is way too much focus on numbers rather than shot placement.

 

[Greyfox]

I do agree fully with others about bullet performance playing an important role. While the conventional guidelines for velocity and energy can be useful for the initial selection of a bullet/load, I place the greatest importance on the how a specific bullet performs on my target animal(s) out to the maximum distance I plan to shoot. Regardless of caliber, penetration and bullet expansion(sectional density/bullet construction) are the critical factors. I have gotten good success over several years and dozens of medium sized game(whitetail, mule deer, antelope, etc.), from 100-1100 yards running 6.5, 140gr Berger HVLD's, and 140/142 JLK VLD's in the 3000FPS/MV range. They appear to kill differently between 100-500 yards(hydrostatic shock), and 500+ yards (tissue damage)....but they surely kill when the bullet is placed in the vitals.

 

[CaptnC]

(can someone make a compelling argument as to how a broadhead arrow functions differently than a solid bullet?)

Even a solid bullet will have energy transfer. You referenced African game, while I have never hunted African game nor hunted Africa I have watched a lot of hunting videos of hunt in Africa. You can clearly see impact energy transer from the bullet to the aniaml. That energy translates to trauma to the flesh.

I've shot hundeds of animals with a bow and even have some arrow shot impacts on video. I've never seen any sign of impact energy being transferred to the animal from an arrow.

I shot a small boar hog (125lber) a few years back. He was quartering to me, but I thought we was 90 degrees. The arrow pasted through and stuck in the ground. So the arrow exited a little back. He ran about 40 yards and went down in sight. When I was getting out of my stand he got up and took off. He made about 20 more yards and was down again. So I left him for a little over an hour and started tracking again.

Blood sign got sparse real quick after he left the second bed. But I was able to track him on smears on the grass. I finally found him still alive. He ended up attacking my wife who used her hand gun to finish him after kicking him off of her.

I always like to do an autopsy on most animals I shoot. Especially this one. The broadhead pasted through one lung and the lip of the liver (not sure what it's really called, but it's the outer edge of the liver).

Both had started to heal to the point I tore the tissue of both the liver and lung before I could get the hole from the 4 blade broadband to open up. She had head shot him so the only blood inside the body cavity was from the arrow. There was not much blood present!

If I had not found him I feel he would have survived just fine.

I have saved skulls from big boar hogs I have killed...two skulls have had head trauma that they were able to survive. One had a old Bear broadhead stuck in the back of his skull with 75% penetration the other had the entire forhead crushed, that the bone had healed/fused back together!

I've seen many three legged deer in the woods...animals can survive wounds that humans can not. I have always considered humans to be soft targets.

Look at our military using 5.56 on humans. I wouldn't hunt any other animal with 5.56...wild animals are too tough!

 

[DocUSMCRetired]

You can actually calculate this. It is called the optimal game weight formula. https://www.facebook.com/AppliedBallisticsLLC/posts/1253858151342732

 

[elkaholic]

I shot a big 5 point bull back in the early nineties that had an EXPANDED 30 cal slug just under the hide that had passed through the center of the chest cavity. It was completely healed and showed no signs of of trauma. I had shot the elk in the lungs with a 140 partiton at 400 yards with a mv of 3130' so the lungs were severally damaged from my bullet.
I felt my knife "click" against something while I was skinning him out, or would never had known he had been shot. The bullet looked like it was probably a Remington corelokt.

 

[mustang58]

Once shot a 6 point bull elk that had an arrow shaft about 15 inches long with a satellite broadhead stuck from rib cage to rib cage through both lungs. Couldn't get the lungs to come out and didn't know why. Reports at country store were that a bow hunter had lost an elk he shot about a month earlier. This elk showed no sign that he was sick.

 

[J E Custom]

Energy Is relative to shot placement more than anything. And is a number to be used as a reference in my opinion.

I was raised using a 22 LR for everything up to deer and hogs. the 22 LR does not have very much energy and if you want something to drop in its tracks, you must make a head shot Only. all other shots become marginal and normally tracking is necessary.

Even the 22 LR can take big game with proper shot placement and with chest shots given enough time and distance, but it is not recommended.

Moving on to the bow and arrow, The arrow uses momentum and very sharp heads to cause severe Hemorrhage and the animal bleeds out. Pass through,s are common but so is tracking.

With the High powered rifle, a different set of rules can be applied and this is where the energy can be used as a guideline or reference.
Energies are normally used to bracket different sized game. Deer size game is normally 1000 to 1200 ft/lbs at Impact. Elk sized game is normally 1500 to 2000 ft/lbs, and larger game is 2000+.

These energies are recommended for one shot kills in the chest area,
with little or no tracking using a well performing bullet. using these energies in combination with distance and bullet design parameters,
consistent results should be achievable as long as proper shot placement is made.

There are many things to consider when taking a shot, and all of these things should be considered by the shooter/hunter before the shot is made. If you apply the energies, you must also apply the recommended bullet size and performance velocity along with shot placement. One does no good without the other.

Ideally, you have an animal in the optimum distance, the optimum velocity for the bullet design, And perfect conditions to make a perfect hit for the recommended energies of the game. But this seldom happens so a hunter has to make a decision how to compensate for the deficiency's and then shot placement/location becomes the most important element.

So in my opinion, it takes many elements to have consistent results, and energy is just one of them. any thing can become lethal, But if all the proper elements are applied the results can be rewarding because you have done your best to minimize risk and loss of the game.

J E CUSTOM

 

[HARPERC]

.........There is plenty of evidence that a lung hit is completely survivable, even a double lung hit.........

Not all lung tissue, or blood vessels, contained therein are anatomically or physiologically identical. The more you wreck, as well as warm air exiting, and cold air entering both sides the better the results.

The lungs 2 big balloons to pop is conceptually wrong.

 

[MagnumManiac]

You can quote outlier events or consider this, prior to the invention of antibiotics a 2 inch deep puncture to the torso of a human was more than 90% fatal? I would be surprised if that is significantly different for four legged animals. You can probably find the crazy outlier events that contradict what I'm saying, but as a generalization I am correct.

I guess they couldn't kill animals without expanding bullets back in the day? I guess archery doesn't work? (can someone make a compelling argument as to how a broadhead arrow functions differently than a solid bullet?) I should clarify, grazing shots on vital organs don't count.

I've killed 3 cape buffalo with a 7x57 and some no name silver colored 175gr solids. All 150 yards or further away. They didn't go far and had similar results on a ton more stuff in Africa with a Ruger M77 7x57.

I guess the poachers up in Northern NM who use 22 Hornets and 223 Rems must all be doing head shots?

Expanding bullets conceivably help and I use them for most of my hunting. I still stand by my assertion that there is way too much focus on numbers rather than shot placement.

You may believe what you say, but an animal is NOT a human, I have witnessed twice in my life now animals being hit by cars travelling at more than 60mph where the animal is thrown into the air and get up and run away. Animals DO NOT FEAR DEATH, this is a human trait, an animal is not AWARE it is going to die, they do not go into shock like humans do, so, many wounds that are fatal to humans are not always fatal to animals.

Your examples of buffalo are good, but I have never found them hard to kill, here our water buffalo are significantly larger than cape buffalo, I have used 7x57, 308, 300WM/Weatherby, 338WM, 375H&H/Weatherby, 416 Rigby/RemMag, 404 Jeffrey, 458 Lott, 505 Gibbs, 500NE + 577BPE.
Every one had no trouble killing buffalo, only difference was time.

Regardless of your beliefs, there are many many examples of ANIMALS surviving what should have been fatal, even with expanding bullets as you say.
One of two toughest animals I have ever encountered are kangaroos, they will take 3 hits to the vitals from a 25-06 100gr pill before dropping, they can cover a 300 acre paddock with these hits, only a fence pulls them up. The other animal that is tougher than you'd expect are feral cats, they react as if nothing happened when shot, just like elk and other large deer do. I watched an Eland get shot TWICE with a 338Edge and 285gr Cutting Edge (I think IIRC) it stood there with NO REACTION, both the guide, the hunter and myself thought it was 2 misses, but being it was my rifle I knew it was sighted correctly, we were getting ready for the third shot when a huge plume of blood foam spewed from it's nostrils and it started to sway, then fell over stone dead.


The only time I am NOT thinking about SHOT PLACEMENT is when I'm calculating my dope, at normal ranges, the ONLY thing I'm concerned with IS shot placement.

Cheers.