Excessive carbon build up?

[moombaskier]

Hello, I'm looking for advice. I shoot a 7mm using H1000, 215m,WW brass, and after even 30rds. down the barrel there is very little carbon build up. This is a near max load, too. In my 243Win shooting IMR7828ssc,215m,WW brass I seem to get a lot of carbon fouling, not sooty like I've seen with Retumbo, but still a lot after shooting only 12rds. I use GM Top end to get the carbon out when cleaning and it takes at least a dozen patches to get it clean using a 15min. soak in between patches. There is little to no copper fouling. Should I look at a different powder? What causes lots of carbon build up?

 

[Mikecr]

What bullets?

 

[BountyHunter]

You will get a carbon builup in the throat right in front of case normally from all firings. Most people are not even aware.

use a sinclair case length gauge in a shortened case to actually measure what you chamber requires as max case length and you might find that you can eliminate most of that. http://www.sinclairintl.com/.aspx/pid=32925/Product/Sinclair_Chamber_Length_Gage

SLIP 2000, Montana Extreme and Wipeout all take it out.

BH

 

[moombaskier]

Thanks for the replies. I'm shooting 95VLD's and 95 Nosler Ballistic tips. Both are seated 0.010" off the lands. My concern is the possibilty of increased pressure from the carbon. I was using the same batch of powder in the 7mag and it didn't carbon up that one.

 

[BountyHunter]

That is a valid concern and reality.

BH

 

[BobbyL]

Issoi is what i use on carbon build up. I use a brush that is under sized by at least one caliber and a patch on top of it. I will basically patch lap the barrel for about 20 strokes after i have cleaned the barrel with a copper solvent. Then i will remove that patch and repeat once or twice if needed. I usually only have to do this every 200 rounds or so. Not sure why its happening so quickly for you.

I have found that powders mean the most on how fast it happens but if its not doing it in a different gun it may just be the finish of the bore thats causing it. I use a kit on guns that copper a lot and it has helped a ton. It might help you. Its called smooth kote and it can be found here in there armorers kit. Sentry Solutions - Dry Lube - Tuf Cloth - Gun Care - Knife Care - Oil Free - Rust Protection. Follow the instructions on it and it has helped a few guns of mine a lot!

 

[Gene]

Over the years I have used numerous products to remove carbon, but never satisfied with any of them. Recently, I have been applying Lucas automotive engine treatment. They advertise carbon removal on the can. I simply dip my nylon brush in it, and scrub the bore several times. Nothing caustic in it, so you can let it sit for several days before wiping clean. So far, I am pleased with the results.

If a carbon ring exists just ahead of the case mouth, it can sometimes be felt as a slightly tight area when dragging a tight patch over it. Carbon rings can be real stubborn. Try turning a brass brush with your favorite solvent over it twisting the cleaning rod 360 degrees several times. A bore scope can help this task.

 

[Boss Hoss]

Iosso Paste works period. Just go by the Iosso instructions or search for instructions I have posted previously.

One look with the Bore Scope negates a thousand expert opinions.

 

[Mikecr]

Boss,
Does ISSO affect the copper fouling that a bore would otherwise produce?
I wonder the same about JB paste

Reason I ask; 2 barrels I've seen increase in copper fouling(to the point of ruined IMO), one from JB 'polish'(by mistake), and another from Flitz(don't ever use this in the bore).
These mistakes led me to explore the mystical world of lapping. I say mystical because I've yet to discover how aftermarket barrelmakers produce barrels that copper foul so little.
I haven't been able to reproduce it in a bore.

I use a borescope, and see that carbon is tougher than hell. I can get em shiny with the chemicals mentioned & nylon brushes. But there is always carbon still impinged into the bore surface irregularities & firecracking.
Does paste remove this, & without polishing the original lapping?

 

[BountyHunter]

Mikecr

The wipeout, ME and others will take out the carbon if you use a hard bristle brush. Let them set and then scrub. I use Wipeout exclusively now for carbon and use a borescope also. Occasionally I might have to revert to a little ISSO or JB.

If you have firecracking, then be very careful removing too much copper. It will lead to bullets catching on the edges of the holes and the mild firecracking quickly turning into "alligatoring" with big chunks missing. When that happens you are SOL and time to get a new barrel.

We had a guy who kept getting bullet blow up on a 10 shot string with a new barrel and finally found an "occlusion" (hole) in the metal where it had been rifled and surfaced when a little material was worn off. Caught the bullets some and tore the surface slightly we think resulting in the blowup at the 50-100 yd mark when it got hot. So it does not take much

As for the aftermarket barrels not coppering. Most of the mftrs have procedures to get the barrels as smooth as possible. Often double lapping. Even then they will tell you that have to cut off the last 1 to 1.5 inches of the blank at the breach and this is with "master" lappers. No one is going to equal that after it has been crowned.

Even their best lappers will bell the muzzle crown and ruin the accuracy if not cut off and recrowned.

BH

 

[BobbyL]

Mikecr

The wipeout, ME and others will take out the carbon if you use a hard bristle brush. Let them set and then scrub. I use Wipeout exclusively now for carbon and use a borescope also. Occasionally I might have to revert to a little ISSO or JB.

If you have firecracking, then be very careful removing too much copper. It will lead to bullets catching on the edges of the holes and the mild firecracking quickly turning into "alligatoring" with big chunks missing. When that happens you are SOL and time to get a new barrel.

We had a guy who kept getting bullet blow up on a 10 shot string with a new barrel and finally found an "occlusion" (hole) in the metal where it had been rifled and surfaced when a little material was worn off. Caught the bullets some and tore the surface slightly we think resulting in the blowup at the 50-100 yd mark when it got hot. So it does not take much

As for the aftermarket barrels not coppering. Most of the mftrs have procedures to get the barrels as smooth as possible. Often double lapping. Even then they will tell you that have to cut off the last 1 to 1.5 inches of the blank at the breach and this is with "master" lappers. No one is going to equal that after it has been crowned.

Even their best lappers will bell the muzzle crown and ruin the accuracy if not cut off and recrowned.

BH

I never use a brush of any kind directly on a bore. I only use smaller then the caliber brushes with a patch on it. There is no need to ever use a brush on your bore. The iosso is the best i have ever found it is not really abrasive at all.

There is a few tricks to getting the lapping good enough that it really doesnt blow out either end of the lapping but it is very tough to do. The muzzle is the most important part to get right. The breach usually has no problems because you are chambering it anyways. Only problems that happen are when you start doing really short chambers that wont clean it all the way up but i have never ran into that problem. The actual finish is the most important part next to actual size because to smooth of a bore will cause excessive fouling and so will being to rough.

 

[Mikecr]

Great stuff guys. Thanks

 

[Boss Hoss]

Mikecr----My cleaning process pretty much mirrors that of Speedy Gonzalez one of my friends and my builder as well. Speedy has spent more hours cleaning his rifles than anyone else I have ever laid eyes on. He spent hundreds of hours testing different cleaning methods and products to determine which one removed the offending material with as little effort and without damage to the bore including the crown. You do not get into the HOF and set world records by damaging your tubes or crowns by cleaning!

Speedy will laugh when telling the story of how when he participated in the national competitions out of town he would conduct his regular cleaning routine during the day but when he got back to the hotel he would "clean down to bare metal" with the Iosso when no one was watching. Always verified with the bore scope.

I shoot 1K BR and must say that the Wipeout does not remove the carbon ring in my tubes. The only product that does is Iosso (never used JB) but then again it makes no difference I clean all of my rifles the same albeit a sporter of a competition rifle---down to the bare metal.