Did I have unrealistic expectations?

[Dgd6mm]

Don't care for Rembelton's anymore.

 

[westcliffe01]

Ghost7, you have to know why you are trying to shoot the heavy bullets in the first place. I started trying to shoot coyotes on a sheep farm with a 222 and 55gr Vmax bullets. Then moved up to a Rem 700 223 with a 12 twist, shooting the 55gr Vmax faster from the 223 chamber and a 26" barrel. But I missed a lot of coyotes at 250+ yards. So I switched to a Savage 10 PC with a 20" 1:9.25 twist barrel. That was the most accurate Savage factory barrel I ever had. Shot 1/2" groups at 100 yards with Hornady 75gr Match HPBT bullets. Had better success on the coyotes with the 75gr bullets since the wind drift at 300 yards was less than half of the 55gr bullets. In addition, the impact energy was at least double for the 75gr vs the 55gr past 250 yards.

So, the point I am making is that if you want to shoot at more than 150/250/350 yards, and want to achieve reliable results, you NEED to be shooting the heaviest and highest BC bullet available for the cartridge. The question of a suitable barrel is simply whatever you need to shoot the highest BC bullet you can find. If you do anything else, you will simply make bigger errors on your wind calls and consequently either miss altogether or make a bad shot. Assuming you make a hit, the high BC bullet will also hit harder since it has lower drag than the lighter ones. You will know if the barrel twist is not right since the VLD's typically will not group at all (3" groups at 100 yards with a VLD vs 1/2 to 1" for a "conventional" bullet of the same weight).

The rifles I hunt with do not have a very long barrel life. 243 AI and 6.5x284 are theoretically around 1200 rounds before accuracy can be expected to degrade. Thus I have the 223 and 308 for practice. Both of those will last a long time and are set up to shoot high BC bullets. I develop a good load for the hunting rifles and stick with it. Trying 4 or 5 different bullets, by the time you are done, the barrel will be on the way out. I shoot the hunting rifles enough that I know they are sighted in and ready to go and that is it (after verifying ballistics of the final load).

Given that I shot 75gr HPBT bullets out the factory barrel, there is no reason why I would even consider shooting anything lighter, unless I knew I was facing a shorter range shooting situation. Even then, with a 100 yard zero and a ballistic table taped to the stock, I could take on a close in situation with what I have without changing anything. If one has a 250 yard zero, close shots may be way too high...

Westcliffe01, for now I'm going to make every effort to get my current barrel to shoot as I'm trying to take baby steps into this endeavor but I'm am curious about something. In theory shouldn't you be able to shoot a good quality, let's say, 70 gr bullet out of a 1:8 twist barrel even though historical data tells us it would prefer something heavier? And theoretically, shoot it well? Have you shot anything that small out of your 8 twist that it likes? For example my RRA AR has a 1:8 heavy barrel and it shoots the 55 gr well even though data suggests it should like 62 or heavier. I'm aware that each rifle has its own personality but asking your opinion and/or experience with this. Thanks

 

[Trickymissfit]

trunst me I have taken my share of maylox. cost in manufactoring for most firearm manufactors is first. due to technology in equipment most of them can be made somewhat accurate. but just like your hi walls & lo-walls that I also have a fettish for there is no longer any pride in workmanship making a firearm correct to start with with the basic rules of design and accuracy in mind. cutting corners then compensating for them by design is no way to make a firearm. and then we the consumer drink the coolaid and like it ?? with todays technology & equipment there is not reason. As for the barrels barrel stock quality is a problem hard & soft spots cause deflection. pac nor & douglas have in long conversations exressed this issue when I asked about bore runout. a large # of barrels supplies today have as much as .040 to .060 runout some of the best .010 ( bore straightness) this is the norm for all of them. there first & best choice for making a perfect barrel is stainless as per them. why mr. Gary???

aside from my precious 99's, I think I've owned three or maybe four. They all must be custom shop guns or something, as they all shot sub .35" groups out of the box with the same hand loads (35.5 grains of IMR 3031 over a Sierra #1365 bullet and a Federal primer. Bullet is seated .002" off the lands). Not rocket science, and even the cases were used in all rifles. The chambers were reamed that close. One rifle had so many rounds thru it, that I did a barrel set back with a N.M. reamer. Virtually no improvement, but it will still shoot .25" on a regular basis. Now my 6/250AI built off a highly regarded blank shoots .25" when mounted on all of these actions. Kinda proves the action works, but more importantly is that the newest is OEM 100%.

Now lets talk crooked barrels! Had two buddies that bought identical 700 tactical rifles in .308. Their S/N are something like five numbers apart. One rifle did 3/8th inch three shot groups out of the box for about three hundred rounds. (I think he did get it shooting .32" five shot groups with Forster N.M. dies and match bullets. After 300 rounds you could see the groups starting to open up. By 500 shots he was in the sub half inch range. But the barrel looked OK to me anyway, but you could see the throat growing. Still a half inch wasn't bad. The other wouldn't shoot period. He gives up on caliber .308, and Fred Sinclair introduces him to Ron Pence (best barrels anywhere). Has Ron cut him a 6mm barrel and chambers it in 6BR. Rifle shoots .25" five shot groups. Ron checks the factory barrel, and finds the center of the bore to have what looks like .100" runout in the center (around the 13" mark). Elmer has him cut a second .308 barrel, and it shoots .30" five shot groups with his old loads. The other guy sends his rifle to a well known company, and has a new barrel and the stock reworked. Rifle shot much worse than when new. Ron Pence checks the barrel thinking the chamber is cut wrong. Bingo! Lots of runout in the center of the barrel. So much for high quality barrels

 

[wbm]

aside from my precious 99's, I think I've owned three or maybe four. They all must be custom shop guns or something, as they all shot sub .35" groups out of the box

Been my experience also. Have had three over the years. Last one was an older 99 with the rotary magazine in 308. Rifle was just amazingly accurate with the right loads. Had a weak moment and sold it to a friend who really wanted one. My bad!

So much for high quality barrels

Ya never know anymore. Last year gunsmith friend of mine bought a Krieger blank to build a custom 300 WM for a customer. Put it on the lathe and when it turned it became painfully apparent it was anything but true. Krieger replaced but made you wonder how that one got past quality control.

 

[Ghost7]

Westcliffe01, good info. Another question, though I'm not trying to shortcut the learning process I'm all about saving time. When it comes to load development would I be wise to go ahead and seat all bullets, let's say .005" off the lands for a standard, then play with powder charges or would I seat to published standards and play with powder charges to find something that works then play with seating depth? You have an opinion?

 

[mark fox]

out of all the barrels I have installed and inspeted the best as far as bore run out has been pac-nor so close no need to ever index but all others most of the time must be indexed or in some cases be sent back. i have out of over 250 plus barrels from pacnor had to have one replaced under warranty due to .750 5 shot at 100 had about .040 run out.

 

[wbm]

would I seat to published standards and play with powder charges to find something that works then play with seating depth?

I set to published standards from whatever reloading manual I am using, usually Sierra V or Nosler and then work from there. If I am using Sierra bullets I go with their recommendation, Nosler theirs, etc. Berger VLD's are an exception. I usually start with those kissing the lands.

 

[mark fox]

It depends on the bullets brand and type. but I would seat .005 and do a full load work up in .5 grain steps example start at bottom load 5 at 40.0 5 at 40.5 5 at 50 5 at 50.5 5 at 51 etc shoot at 1/4 " black dots in white paper no 1" dots aim small miss small rememver you are only looking for groupe size clean you gun before shoot 5 to 8 fouling rounds then start your testing dont clean your gun during testing keep your barrel tempture the same at all times. watch for paralex ane repeat your line of sight threw your scope at all times in one trip to the range you should know what you and your gun is able to do. ps barns bullets or other solid copper bullet like .075 to .125 off lands

 

[Ghost7]

All sound advice. Forgive my ignorance and appreciate the patience with the elementary questions I'm asking but I've got another one. I'm assuming that seating depth changes pressure I.e. more volume in case by seating closer to the lands which I would think would change pressure in case by reduction but increasing pressure in the chamber by decreasing tolerances there, is this correct? Or am I thinking backwards as I so often do? In the event this is correct, does that allow to increase powder charges above published max or vice versa? Obviously looking for signs of over pressure for safety. I've just noticed in my short experience with reloading I have seen some max published loads show no visible signs of over pressure where as I have seen some middle of the road charges flatten primers.

 

[mark fox]

lots of questions that have many awnsers. flat primes is not always a sign of preasure some times if you bump the shoulder to hard when sizing it can cause that problem other times its headspacing both the same issue firing pin moved case foward preasure pushed it out primer slaming the bolt face flattened the primer.
Changing the placement of the bullet in the case ie change in volume has very little to do with preasure. placement of bullet will dictate the volume in witch power will fit or the amount of powder you can use but but its still subjest to burn rate grain weight bore diamiter load bearing surface barrel leingth and so on . seating at lands will raise preasure. due to resisting to confomity a monentary spike is created thus delay of increased chamber demintions due to bullet not going down barrel at need rate. Now forget everything I have told you. none of it matters use powders listed for grain weight and volumes listed. in the reloading books. seat the bullet where ever it shoots best. ( my sweet spot on most bullets is .007) never go below listed amount but in most cases you can go above. most cartrages have been designed that when using the correct burn rate powder with the correct grain weight bullet it almost not possable to blow a gun up. due to the fact that you cant fit enough powers in the case. most loads on most calibers are 90% to 105%. ( pistols & shot guns excluded)

 

[mark fox]

you do want to avoid seating a barns bullet or other solids hard into lands above listed load data. solid copper does not like conforming to lands and groves it to hard. they like a big jump to help with conforming. Thats why barns tells you if you call them with accuracy issues try .075 to .125 off. i can make a barns t-shock shoot match grade accuracy but there b.c sucks.

 

[mark fox]

as far as increasing the amount of powder you can use by seating your bullets out futher it can. thats one of the reasons guys go with longer throats. some cartrage cases can benefit from it greatly like under bore cases. 35 whelen (or how ever you spell it) Others that are overbore might not. Like the 257 weatherby even though Roy did it anyway ( freebore ) but depending on the powder you are using and how long your barrel is adding more powder might not help. One can do the same thing in many cases by just changing the Powder to faster powder in the reloading data. For many years the 35 whelen old farts reloaded it with h4350 & h380 and if you were brave imr 4831 but now we see load data with 223 powder imr 4895 h 335 blc-2 etc. being under bore it cant build preasure so we resorted to faster powder. and doing the ackly imp. to correct the headspacing issue with the 35 whelen and its still a crappy cartrage. but it made it better. ( Thats going to get some posts)

 

[shortgrass]

Did you have unrealistic expectations? For a "factory" rifle, I think so. "Factory", whatever the brand stamped on it, is 'hit and miss'. Of course, it depends on how large the gong or paper is @ 1000yds! If it's big enough you can say "I hit it!".

 

[Trickymissfit]

Been my experience also. Have had three over the years. Last one was an older 99 with the rotary magazine in 308. Rifle was just amazingly accurate with the right loads. Had a weak moment and sold it to a friend who really wanted one. My bad!

Ya never know anymore. Last year gunsmith friend of mine bought a Krieger blank to build a custom 300 WM for a customer. Put it on the lathe and when it turned it became painfully apparent it was anything but true. Krieger replaced but made you wonder how that one got past quality control.

my Savage 99's are probably 1.25" rifle with zero load development. I did see one in 250-3000 that shot half inch groups once. Could have had that rifle, and have cried ever since. Just love at first sight!
gary