Competition Dies?

[ds]

7mmag man,

Not a book as such but the Sinclair catalog list a lot of good toys ( they update it 3 or4 times a year, gave the web addy a few post back) . The hard part is selecting what bits are needed, thats where the good advices comes in.

Hope it helps a bit,

David.

 

[srhaggerty]

Fifty,

Oh things are going as well as they can. I am patiently waiting and holding back the urge to email you for updates on my rifle.

I had read I think on the 6mmbr website about a guy that remove his expander ball from his die. Is this a good idea, or do you deprime a different way? I am trying to make notes and improve on my reloading practices. My mentor was not nearly this AR about the finer details. He was when he wanted to have "match" grade ammo. But that was almost never. I do however think these little things will pay off in accuracy.

 

[goodgrouper]

I deprime with the comp neck die which is not threaded for an expander ball. That is the beauty of bushing comp dies, if you are using the correct bushing there is no need for an expander ball. The expander ball was a method of correcting the gross "oversizing" accompanied by regular dies. By eliminating the oversizing, you can eliminate the expander ball. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

 

[BountyHunter]

I have both custom neil jones, redding comps and Forester Bonanza BR dies that have been converted to bushing by Jim Carstenson ($40).

For the money, the Bonanza BR with FL neck bushings and the micro seater is the best deal. As a precise and accurate as the Redding and half the money.

I like the Neil Jones custom inline seater with micro top also. Wilsons are OK but not as easy as the Neil Jones.

The RCBS case gauge set which measures runout, inside case thickness etc ($50) is a good tool.

BH

 

[Kenster-Boy]

A couple more questions... Can Redding dies be used with an RCBS press?(maybe a stupid question) Also I was looking in Midway and I see the Redding Competition Bushing Neck Sizer 3-Die Set and it inclueds a bushing neck sizer, body die, and seater. I was wondering what is the difference between the neck sizer, plus the body die and what I am currently using the Full Length sizing die?

And all in all does this sound like the package that I need?

 

[Brent]

1 - They will work in RCBS press, they are all 7/8" threaded.

2 - The body die sizes the body and pushes the shoulder back only, not touching the neck... this is left for the bushing neck die, which is all it does.

3 - The full length die you currently have will also size the neck where the body die will not, that is the difference between them.

4 - The comp bushing neck die has a spring loaded guide sleeve to help control body alignment to the neck bushing before the neck enters the bushing to be sized. How it works is the sleeve drops lower than the die, being pushed out of the bottom of the die a little ways by the spring above it, the case is run up into it, in which it fits like a glove (chamber), the sleeve is fitted tightly to the die's body and when the case contacts the shoulder in the sleeve the sleeve slides up inside the die body under spring pressure to allow the neck to be sized by the neck bushing, while being held in axial alignment.

5 - The clearance between the sleeve and die body, also between the case and sleeve can allow the axial alignment to be off just a bit, but it's better than a standard neck die with NO guide sleeve. However, a FULL LENGTH sizing die that uses neck bushings holds the case body perfectly tight, as it is sizing it, so axial alignment is perfect to the bushing, reducing runout if it exists, or preventing it from occuring when the neck enters the bushing by keeping the neck from sizing more on the one side that is weaker/softer.

Again, I would have your FL die fitted for neck bushings by Jim Carstensen, or buy a FL bushing die and stay away from the bushing "neck" die (comp or otherwise) and body die combo. With anything less than medium to mild loads you will need to keep the shoulder pushed back .001-.002 on the cases and the body sized down at the pressure ring at least every other firing, so just make it routine to do it every firing and keep your ammo "consistant" by doing so, or every time you FL size cause they get too tight you throw the inconsistancy thing right back into your ammo... and that is the very thing we work to avoid.

Just my suggestion, but a neck only die will not correct runout and very often will get the runout problem started when you woould never have one with an FL die, tis why most BR shooters have went back to FL sizing, that and most don't shoot light loads either.

 

[Brent]

One more thing on this runout deal -

Some of you may want to purchase a test jig to measure your RO, and like Bountyhunter said, the RCBS works great and also does a few other things like case wall thickness etc, and is reasonably priced.

All this that I've said is easy to check for yourself if you have a concentricity jig, don't take my word for it as you can check it and see it for yourself so easy.

Now this part here is important: If your fired cases have ANY RUNOUT, you MUST use a FL die in order to correct it, a NECK die will not correct this and if you think about it for a minute you will understand why it will not, and why the FL die WILL. If the fired cases come out of your chamber with RO the NECK die will almost always make the runout WORSE. If you have a chamber that produces .003 RO upon firing and run those cases into the NECK die and find the RO increased to .005 - .008 TIR (total indicated runout), when you shoot them they are further off (obviously) than they were initially but will go back to about .003 TIR when fired... but the cycle will continue.

Even neck thickness and using a FL die with a good straight seating die is anyones best bet for consistant concentric ammo.

 

[Mysticplayer]

7mmmag man, now that was the detail I was looking for. The rifle you were shooting. Right off we know that the chamber will be SAAMI spec (no surprise here). Will also have a short throat (at least the two I have tested did) which will ensure a chance at good groups. Barrel quality is usually excellent per factory standards.

Let's start off with the rifle. Did you properly bed that action, support the barrel nut and free float the rest? Is there any chance the barrel can hit the stock?

What type of trigger do you have? Older heavy creepy *** or Accutrigger or aftermarket? Changing to a light crisp trigger will do wonders for your groups.

What bullets are you using? Don't expect most hunting bullets to shoot. They simply aren't made that good. Only ones to consider are Hornady SST/Interbond, Nosler BT and accubond. Then there are the match bullets like AMax, Sierra, Bergers, Wildcats, etc. Garbage in garbage out.

You may not be able to stabilize the bullets heavier then 168gr. Savages come with 9 1/2 twist in their RM's. I am using 162gr SST/AMax.

I am using a set of Lee collet dies and seater. I don't FL size because I want that case AS BIG AS possible to fill that rather generous chamber and control headspace off the shoulder not the belt. When the case grows so that it will not chamber easily (6 to 8 reloads with sane pressures), the case gets tossed. Unless you can move that shoulder back ever so slightly, you will have case separation around that belt in a couple of firings. Why many go to a beltless case for match shooting. Just one less pain in the butt to worry about.

Right now I am working up a load using H870 and 162gr SST moly coated and Fed 215M primers. At 180yds, I hope to confirm sub 1" 3rd groups. Just have the light hunting barrel so anymore rds and this thing gets toasty. Besides, I should only need one right???

If I end up with say consistent 3/4" group, then this will be a rifle that can shoot accurately enough for hunting out to 850yds.

Check to make sure your actions screws, scope bases, rings all stay tight. Mine are backing out all the time. I am trying to be less agressive in my bolt tightening. Not happy. will return to gorilla torque /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

There should be no issue with bullet length and still fitting in the mag. Just take your time while shooting. That barrel will heat up very quickly and could walk. Also, recoil becomes bothersome so take plenty of rest, even if you don't feel tired.

I put a very nice muzzle brake on mine and recoil is so light. Noise is harsh though.

Also, make sure you have a scope that can handle the recoil. If you are using a lesser product, wouldn't surprise me if parallax is an issue or its just moving zero. Same goes for rings.

Think consistent accuracy not the smallest group. You don't have a match rifle so don't expect that level of performance. There are so many things that could affect your accuracy that comp dies are the least of your problems. Just measure your ammo and if within 3 thou of runout, work on your load/shooting.

If you really want teeny tiny groups, install a match barrel.

Jerry

 

[Kenster-Boy]

Jerry,
The action is not beeded except for pilar bedding from the factory. The barrel is COMPLETELY free floated and the barrel nut is supported. I have the accutrigger set at under 2 pounds. I am shooting 150 gr Nosler BT's. Plan on trying SMK's and Berger VLD's pretty soon.

I have a Leupold 6.5-20 scope with leupold rings and bases. I am planning to go to a 20moa base pretty soon. All in all the scope is solid. And you said a Muzzle Break...No thanks. I don't like the noise and at 13-15 pounds my rifle has a very mild recoil to it.

And yes I have consistent groups between 3/4 and 1 inch at 100 yards but at two hundread I have about 3-4 inch groups. So I was thinking that maybe my reloading has something to do with it. But then agian it may just be the load and I need to find another good one. THANKS FOR THE ADVISE

PS under .003 (in my dreams) I am getting .005-.010 (just a guess but it is definitely not straight at all (I can see obvious wobble while rolling it on glass))

 

[Mysticplayer]

First thing, bed that action. If the action moves just one thou from shot to shot, do the math at 200yds. Relying on action screws is not the best idea. I have the factory plastic stock so bedding is more problematic but I will get to it shortly.

If you are getting that much runout, you will need one or two new dies. How is the brass after firing? Does it wobble too? If so, you have a bum barrel and there is nothing you can do to solve it.

Try a collet neck die. You can pick them up for $16 at Natchezz. That alone should reduce your runout tremendously (assuming chamber is not trash).

Small groups at 100yds with larger groups at longer ranges indicate stringing of some kind. This assumes that the rifle is consistently accurate and ammo is straight.

Get that ammo under control, action bedded and eliminate any outside problems. A wobbly rest can destroy groups at longer ranges. So can improper or inconsistent rifle position and form during recoil.

What load are you using?

Jerry

 

[Kenster-Boy]

I am shooting 62 gr of IMR 4831 pushing 150 gr. Nosler BT's. Backed by CCI 250 large rifle magnum primerd. Getting between 3000 and 3100 fps. I don't have a crono so that is a guestimate from the reloading manuals I have.

 

[Mysticplayer]

Let's assume you get the runout issue addressed. Consider a slower powder that fills the case better. With that much 4831, there is a lot of room and that can affect ignition.

I find case filling as near to 100% does help with lowering ES and reducing stringing at LR.

But first things first, get that ammo straight.

Jerry

 

[srhaggerty]

GG, How do you determine the correct bushing size?