Bullets: No time for expansion...

[Stgraves260]

Hey, I'm just telling you all (with proof) what they said.

Don't take stuff to personal on this site. Some people like to belittle people to make themselves feel superior. Now about your question. I don't feel it's really the bullet is moving to fast it's the Density of the bullet. At close range use a thin wall jacket so it will expand at close range. But the downside is sometimes they just explode and fragment. If the bullet is a solid type bullet it just may not mushroom and leave a small pin hole on soft thin game. But on thick skin game the solid has more Penetration. There is so many Theories about all this. I've just learned over the years if I shoot deer up to moose 300 yards or less I shoot in the neck with my Berger's. Past 300 yards I shoot high shoulder. I'm not going hungry anytime soon. Hope this helps. Good luck on the quest.

 

[cynicrit]

Hey, I'm just telling you all (with proof) what they said.

I heard that same B.S. from various "experts" from the time I started hunting. It was the result of ignorant misinterpretation of data. If a bullet is going to expand at all, then the deformation/expansion begins at the point of impact where velocity/energy is greatest. The degree and speed at which this progresses is subject to various factors, but a bullet going too fast to expand? That's crazy.

 

[crazyhorse]

There's a video from Barnes floating around the internet showing one of their bullets fully expanding as it passes through a grape...

 

[charliewhisky]

So I reached out to the people at Copper Creek about my search for a bullet that will give me better expansion at ranges under 200 yards from my 7mm-08's and 308 Win.

Some may remember my conversation with the tech at Berger stating I needed to slow them down as they do not have a chance to expand.

Well, Alan at Copper Creek stated the same thing. I do not know how a bullet fired from these cartridges (not magnums) at 100 yards do not have time to expand. You guys with magnums must get penciling out to 400 yards! LOL

I'm at a loss....maybe they are onto something....????

Thanks
Steve

Check out the ELD-X paper at https://www.hornady.com/assets/site/hornady/files/resources/ELD-X_ELD-Match_Technical_Details.pdf

 

[John Klingenberg]

Newtons law applies, i.e. equal and opposite reactions and all that. Impact is impact no matter the speed.

 

[5.56×250]

I use to hear guys coming in the shop all the time complaining that their 300WM was too fast for hunting in the Ga woods because the deer they shot at 35 yds ran 300 yds and only left 6 drops of blood because the bullet blew right through. Ever single time this happened, the guy had picked the wrong bullet for the job. Of course, this was the average seasonal hunter that bought ammo off the shelf. They had magnum fever and thought that a load that was designed for large, heavy bones critters would do an even better job on your average 100 lbs doe. I'd always just throw them a box of WW 150 PPs or 150 corelocks and tell them to try those. Alot of guys would come back in a few days looking to trade their 300 mag for something that didnt destroy so much meat, lol..........its all relative.

 

[nicholasjohn]

It seems crazy but there is some truth to it.

My experience in this matter is specifically with bergers, and sierras. Obviously it varies with the particular bullet, the cartridge, the twist and what part of the animal it impacts.

At close range ( 30-200 yds ) on a soft target sometimes the bullet wont have enough time to fully disintegrate its front half before exiting the animal. It will deform and inflict shot but the wound cavity wont be at its maximum. This is obvious as the exit wound is about 1-2".

At medium range ( 300-600 yds) as the bullets slow down a bit now the pieces of the nose have less forward momentum to deviate from, near the same rotational speed, and more time inside the animal, the wound cavity will bee much larger and can sometimes leave exits in the 4-5" range.

At long range ( >500-600 ), and just above the minimum required speed for expansion, now the bullets dont expand as violently because energy has dropped off quite a bit, but rotational speed is still very high. So nearly 100% of the maximum wound cavity is located inside the animal and this will be evident when the exit wound starts dropping back down to 1-3", or you stop getting exits.

Sometimes this makes people uneasy, but its a very effective way to kill and is why cup and core bullets have the following and the skepticism they do.

Those same people like the performance of bonded bullets or solids better, and their performance makes more sense really.

The faster they go the more damage they do. Much more linear, much easier to understand.

A while back there was some ballistic gel test done to simulate how a bullet expands, and the different wound cavities it created at various speeds inside its effective parameters. Except they used various twist barrels to properly simulate the rotational decay of a bullet fired from a typically loaded round. ( A bullets slows down in FPS much faster than it slows down in RPM. So it has to be loaded in a tighter twist barrel as the MV decreases to accurately simulate a round fired at long range. ) When this was done the distance before the bullet fully opened varied anywhere from about 10" down to about 2".

Ill see if I can find the video. It makes more sense when you see it.

Another factor on bullet expansion is what kind of body tissue the bullet hits. The only ones I can remember that zipped right through the animal without expanding were the ones that entered between the ribs and exited between the ribs. ( The lungs in between were even softer than the muscle tissue between the ribs.)

This may have been pure coincidence, too, since I have only had a handful of those occurrences. Come to think of it, I have some pretty big holes even when the bullet missed the rib bones. So, I'm not betting big money on this theory - it is anything but proven. Just thought I'd throw that out there. Also, animals as small and soft as a woodchuck seem to explode when shot with the same bullets, and there's nothing there that offers much resistance for expanding a big game bullet. Who knows ???

 

[J E Custom]

I have hunted with a 7/08 and a 308 for many years and with the lower velocities of these cartridges, you must shoot lighter bullets. I have had 100% success with the ballistic tips. I have found that the 120 grain Ballistic tip at or above 3000 ft/sec out performed any other bullet. they fly very flat, and expend 95% of their energy in the game for instant knock down.

The 308 performed best with the 150 grain Ballistic tip. I have taken many deer past 500 yards with both rifle and pistol using this bullet.

For the faster 7mm's like the STW and the 7 RUM a bonded bullet like the Accubond works best. at extreme velocities the ballistic tip's tend to grenade.

J E CUSTOM

 

[chiefmoose]

There are many factors in the expansion of a bullet. Velocity is a big factor, but density if the tissue it is being shot through is the biggest factor. I am an avid hunter, shooter, and reloader. I have been shooting my entire life. I have been reloading for 30 years, for both accuracy and terminal expansion. I have studied, and been involved in, ballistics testing. If someone tells you that higher velocity equals better expansion, is flat wrong! I have shot into many different ballistic media, as well as live animals to determine the best bullets for different situations. For hunting medium sized game at any range with a .308, in most conditions, your best bullet for accuracy and terminal expansion would be a Sierra MatchKing 168gr BTHP. If you reload, keep the muzzle velocity at 2600fps or lower for shots less than 150 yards. For rain or moderate wind, a Sierra matchking 175gr. For heavy rain, or brush, 180gr or heavier. Again, keep the muzzle velocity at 2600fps or lower for shots under 150 yards. You will hear lots of opinions on here, and that is all they are is opinions. This is my opinion. Try this info, and form your own opinion. Here is a whitetail, shot at 225yds, with a Sierra Matchking 168gr BTHP with a muzzle velocity of 2600fps.

 

[chiefmoose]

Let me clarify part of my answer. I said the 168gr was best for any range. That is not necessarily true. At approximately 800-900 yards (depending on muzzle velocity) the 168gr will go subsonic. The 168gr does not make that transition well. The data I shared, was meant for hunting situations, usually 500yds or less. For longer ranges, use a heavier bullet, with a higher muzzle velocity. Try that, and let me know what you think.

 

[del2les]

one of the deadliest and most violent killing bullets ive ever witnessed personally was a 180 gr swift scriocco II leaving the muzzle at 3415 FPS out of my 300 ultra mag. never had one fail to open and had a bunch go through smaller critters but exits were usually fist sized !! …

Very similar experiences with the Scrirocco II's in my 300RUMs @ 3,390.

As for the expansion claims by these "experts", one can experience this in just about any business these days. The employee on the phone can really be clueless about the product and business they are working in.

 

[doubledoc]

Hey, I'm just telling you all (with proof) what they said.

The "Force" of deceleration causes deformation and expansion. When a bullrt hits a solid "wall", it decelerates almost instantly, thereby flattening it like a pancake! More velocity, with a constant medium, means greater force of deceleration and quicker expansion. W Capps, MD, JD

 

[ndking1126]

Since most seem to be focusing on how wrong the customer service rep is, I'll make a recommendation on bullets. SSTs and Ballistic Tips are reported to expand more rapidly than most. I personally wouldn't want to shoot them at magnum speeds (prone to grenade upon impact), but at 308 and 7-mm08 speeds they will do a fine job at any reasonable range. I personally like penetration more than rapid expansion though.

 

[cohunt]

yea, those 40 grain bullets moving at 4300 fps from my 22-250 just pencil right through those p.dogs---NOT