Break action rifles for (mountain-) hunts?

[Varberger757]

When I was reading some of the interesting and exciting reports about hunting in the USA (Hells Canyon f. ex.) I asked myself why aren't they using single shot break action rifles while hunting in the mountains in such tough and demanding terrain.
In Europe, they are very popular while hunting large game in f. ex. in the Highlands of Scotland, the Alps, Fjell - regions in Norway etc. Most of the SSBA– rifles are made by high - tech standards and of extraordinary quality. They are known to be highly precise shooters with sub - MOA anyway. Producers of SSBAs are f. ex. Blaser (K 95), Krieghoff (Hubertus), Merkel (K3 + 4) and other well – known names.
The best thing about them is their lightweight only 6 – 7lbs, their reduced OAL by fully maintained bbl and the possibility of dissembling them into 2 or 3 parts. Just put the parts into your backpack and have some more comfort instead of bearing an extra bulky scabbard. When reassembled they don't need to be sighted in again, always the same POI. Calibres both rimmed and not rimmed from 222 – 338. Most popular are the 6,5 – 7 mm rounds due to low gun weight. The potent rounds from 7 RM - demand good muzzle brakes. BBl between 20,5' – 25,5'. Hunters with good practice do not have any problems with fast reloading. Re – or unloading can be done noiseless which isn't bad either.

What are your opinions and comments due to this topic?

 

[Varberger757]

Bump... That's so far quite disappointing.

 

[HARPERC]

I've come back and read a couple of times. I had hoped someone else could discuss it better, but certainly did not intend your thoughts to just hit a dead end.

So, absent someone else kicking in I'll take a shot at it. Technical side, most hunts the single shots would provide competitive service. This being the Long Range Hunting site the advantages accuracy wise goes to the bolt guns. Just plain ruggedness, I believe the bolts over time, especially with chambers closer to the minimum side will feed, fire and, extract in adverse conditions better than the single shots. A good quality take down, may well "return to Zero", but at the ranges we talk here, I'd have to be convinced.

Cultural side though is where I believe most of the difference is. Our approach here has been different. especially in the west. Maybe too many stories weighted against Europeans in railroad cars shooting their way across the plains. A lot of our visitors have been from an economic class that most of us don't feel comfortable with. Perhaps carrying one of the best quality, single shots feels a bit like "putting on airs".

Personally, I love a good single single shot. I just can't own them all. I've had in the back of my mind either, the large Hagn, or Falling Block Works, chambered for one of the big rimmed cartridges. However, if I had the money I'd likely go shoot a Cape Buffalo with my bolt action .375.

"Hero's of Telemark" was one of my favorite books as a kid. I've known a fair amount of folks with Norweigian ancestry that have reflected positively on your corner of the world. So for me you start with a lot of built in credibility when you say the fine single shots are more than just functional fine art.

Should you ever find yourself in this corner of the world, stop by we'll take a hike, or ATV ride and compare side by side.

 

[Varberger757]

I've come back and read a couple of times. I had hoped someone else could discuss it better, but certainly did not intend your thoughts to just hit a dead end.

So, absent someone else kicking in I'll take a shot at it. Technical side, most hunts the single shots would provide competitive service. This being the Long Range Hunting site the advantages accuracy wise goes to the bolt guns. Just plain ruggedness, I believe the bolts over time, especially with chambers closer to the minimum side will feed, fire and, extract in adverse conditions better than the single shots. A good quality take down, may well "return to Zero", but at the ranges we talk here, I'd have to be convinced.

Cultural side though is where I believe most of the difference is. Our approach here has been different. especially in the west. Maybe too many stories weighted against Europeans in railroad cars shooting their way across the plains. A lot of our visitors have been from an economic class that most of us don't feel comfortable with. Perhaps carrying one of the best quality, single shots feels a bit like "putting on airs".

Personally, I love a good single single shot. I just can't own them all. I've had in the back of my mind either, the large Hagn, or Falling Block Works, chambered for one of the big rimmed cartridges. However, if I had the money I'd likely go shoot a Cape Buffalo with my bolt action .375.

"Hero's of Telemark" was one of my favorite books as a kid. I've known a fair amount of folks with Norweigian ancestry that have reflected positively on your corner of the world. So for me you start with a lot of built in credibility when you say the fine single shots are more than just functional fine art.

Should you ever find yourself in this corner of the world, stop by we'll take a hike, or ATV ride and compare side by side.

Thanks a lot for your kind and reflected answer. I have to admit that I was very positively surprised. You are surely on the right track, when you refer to the cultural differences between Americans and Europeans also in terms of hunting. Even if we share the most things on both sides of the Atlantic there has been of course a different development throughout the last 250 years.
America (USA) has always been very attractive to me by its huge values of freedom in general and individuality for every single person. Now I'm in my fifties, but when I was a child or teenager, I was reading everything about the Great West of the USA and I got an idea how it should be. These are some of the reasons for me joining this great forum, and I don't regret it. Coming back to hunting and guns, weapons in general the starting point in the US and Europe is different. Here in Europe, we are very limited how many guns we are allowed to own, and I will try to visualize this topic. If you are not organized in a shooting club or active hunter with passed exam you can't buy anything but airguns, sometimes not even that. Currently you have to be at least 18 - 21 years of age and with no reports at all in your certificate of conduct. Access to handguns like pistols and revolvers is even more restricted. It's a pity that loyal people get punished and are hit by suspicion while the criminals can supply themselves with almost everything on the black market.
Hunting rules in Northern- and Central Europe are very hard and tough. Ethics have a huge standing, btw, I agree with that to a 100%. Everyone who wants to hunt has to pass an exam, both practically and theoretically. What concerns rifles it's to a 80 % the same than in the USA. Bolt-action rifles are ruling on the market. Break actions have a long history and everyone wants to own such in a lifetime. Extra craftsmanship is necessary to get them build, that's where the high costs come from. All of these rifles are extremely precise and the single shots in particular. They are often used on distances between 300 – 450m in mountain regions where they traditionally come from. Large game is their main target like red stag deer (ca. 400 lbs.), wild boar, Steinbock, Gams (2 types of goats) and the European caribou. If someone wants to purchase one of these, he might go and buy a used one in mint condition. Costs for a normal edition are between 1800 – 2500 Euros without scope. Not that dangerous and the way to go for most of us who are hard working for their money. While hunting in tough terrain like the Norwegian West coast or Alps I would always prefer a SSBA because they are lightweight, handy, and very precise. Hard work means light equipment. ;-)
When you will travel to Scandinavia one day, you'll be invited to see some of the nicest and most interesting places at this lovely place and of course shooting ranges.

 

[jkupper]

I am most familiar with the gun makers that you listed through the trap shooting that I did when I was younger. I always wanted to someday own a Krieghoff, but an over/under was around $10,000 US at that time. I would hate to see what they are listed for now!

Now that I am a husband and father of 3 young children, cost is an even greater concern for me. I am currently one of the cheapskates on this site, shooting 4 factory rifles, and taking the time to tune an accurate load for each. I would love to own a custom rifle, but that is out of my price range right now. So, you can see that an even more expensive European made rifle, however fine, is simply out of my price range.

I am also of the same mind as HARPERC. I know for a fact that the gun makers that you listed build some truly excellent guns, but I would have to see one disassembled, and reassembled, and shot out to 800 yards with consistency before I would think of one as a long range rig. I know they are well built, but the critic in me would have to see to believe.

Bottom line for me, I need to pay the bills and the table before I could consider owning a "fine" rifle or shotgun. They are works of art in my mind though!!!

 

[westcliffe01]

The only thing to say to this passage is that elections have consequences. Often the consequences build up over decades. If anyone thinks that the days of territorial aspirations are over, I think they have a surprise coming. The large scale disarming of the public is a very dangerous social experiment, when one considers who your neighbors are and how many authoritarian regimes there still are in the world.

If you are not organized in a shooting club or active hunter with passed exam you can't buy anything but airguns, sometimes not even that. Currently you have to be at least 18 - 21 years of age and with no reports at all in your certificate of conduct. Access to handguns like pistols and revolvers is even more restricted. It's a pity that loyal people get punished and are hit by suspicion while the criminals can supply themselves with almost everything on the black market.

 

[Varberger757]

I am most familiar with the gun makers that you listed through the trap shooting that I did when I was younger. I always wanted to someday own a Krieghoff, but an over/under was around $10,000 US at that time. I would hate to see what they are listed for now!

Now that I am a husband and father of 3 young children, cost is an even greater concern for me. I am currently one of the cheapskates on this site, shooting 4 factory rifles, and taking the time to tune an accurate load for each. I would love to own a custom rifle, but that is out of my price range right now. So, you can see that an even more expensive European made rifle, however fine, is simply out of my price range.

I am also of the same mind as HARPERC. I know for a fact that the gun makers that you listed build some truly excellent guns, but I would have to see one disassembled, and reassembled, and shot out to 800 yards with consistency before I would think of one as a long range rig. I know they are well built, but the critic in me would have to see to believe.

Bottom line for me, I need to pay the bills and the table before I could consider owning a "fine" rifle or shotgun. They are works of art in my mind though!!!

The issues about money are all over the same, I can guarantee you! Most of the hunters, shooters over here use also factory bolt action rifles and shotguns. Luckily are most of the brands we use already of high quality, so tuning is often not nescessary. Single shot rifles are a dream, a dream I want to realize once. I surely will go for a used gun in mint condition for a reasonable price. Many older hunters have died already or stopped hunting, so it is quite easy to find something real good to buy. I'd personally go for Merkel or Blaser because they're much cheaper than Krieghoff and Heym. The most expensive rifles both break action and bolt action are coming from the custom gunmakers in Ferlach, Austria. Worth looking at! A tip from my side is egun.de, the most used website for guns, equipment etc. in Europe. Mainly in German but English is also available. More and better offers in German. SSBA - rifle's name is Kipplaufbuechse. I personally can't guarantee for consistency of these products, but I'm convinced that if you dissamble, reassemble them they will still hold POI even out to 800yards. Find yourself a good gunbroker in Europe and get your SSBA shipped to the US, one day. BTW, price for a new standard K -80 shotgun in the US is 14 395 dollares at Clay Target Sports... gun)

 

[jkupper]

BTW, price for a new standard K -80 shotgun in the US is 14 395 dollares at Clay Target Sports... gun)

MAN!!! That is even more than I would have been able to dream that they would have gone up. I guess that shows how long I have been out of the game.

Long range hunting is expensive, but there are more expensive shooting sports for sure!

Okay, back to the single shot discussion...

If those single shot rifles are able to be disassembled and reassembled and still maintain that kind of accuracy then the workmanship must be beyond good! I would love to see one in action.

Another thing that I noticed is the amount of drop in the stocks for the guns you mentioned. Will they build a straighter stocked gun that would accommodate a scope better? It seems like it would be very difficult to maintain a good cheek weld, and as a result I would expect that one would get a pretty good welt on the cheek if you shot it very much/often.

Boy, they sure are pretty guns though!!!!

On a side note, we currently have a foreign exchange student from Norway. I asked her where Buskerud is, in response to your 8mm thread. She lit up as she was reminded of home. Apparently her family has a summer home in the region. We visited about hunting (she is not a hunter), but I asked if she and her family would ever put me up to stay if I could manage to go on a moose hunt there. She said sure. I may have to look you up if that ever comes to fruition.

 

[Varberger757]

Quote: jkupper

Yepp, looking at this price makes me feel quite sick either... Brand names, reputation, all the same as with cars. You know well that a Porsche is costy. ;-)
You're to a 100% right about stock forms. I prefer also the straight classic line and not the so called "Fischbauchschaft", fishbelly stock in translation. This fishbelly stock is still popular in Europe and comes by origin from Southern Germany (Bavaria) and Austria.The straight is also much better due to absorbtion of recoil. BTW, it'll be no problem to order a straight stock without extra costs. That includes also a decent cheek weld after your personal taste and preference. What nice surprise with your exchange student from Norway. I'm living in a town straight up Northwest from Oslo 65 km away. The landscape is marvellous, many hills all over covered by deep forests. Many lakes, small and big, and rivers as well. Made for hunting moose. Currently we've some smaller issues with high numbers of predators here, mostly wolf and lynx.When you will come here I will try my very best to get a moose hunt organized. "Hilsen til din gjest fra Norge" - Greetings to your guest from Norway!

 

[Varberger757]

I asked her where Buskerud is, in response to your 8mm thread.

Since you named the 8 mm thread, I'm thinking about another topic in this context that might be interesting to discuss. ;-) Adequate calibres for single shot break action - rifles. I'll try to get it done the easy way now, because I'm going to start with 7 mm and stop with 8 mm which of course includes the 30 cal.
In my opinion, rimmed 7 mm rounds are best suited for SSBA, so I'll take the classical 7x57R and the more potent 7x65R. The 7x65R is the rimmed version of the famous 7x64 and has about the same performance as the 280 Rem. One great belted mag - round should not be missing in this addition, and that's the 7 RM.


Now we are coming to an extremely interesting round in the 30 cal. group, the 30R Blaser. This very potent rimmed round of a 30 cal. was invented by Blaser 10 – 15 years ago. Especially for use in the numerous numbers of break actions in Europe. It made its way on very short terms and has already gained its fast place in the heart of many hunters. Brass is no issue at all. With new powders and bullets this rimmed round has come extremely close to the performance of a 300 WM. Quite stout recoil in lightweight SSBAs, so a good muzzle brake has to be recommended! This round could give break actions a real boost in the USA and among LRH. Combined knowledge in the US and superb new powders and bullets like the Bergers and ABs etc. should give this round the opportunity of a breakthrough.



Now to my personal all-time favourites, the 8 mms. Since the 8x57 I(R)S has no adequate flat trajectory I'm not taking it on the list. I would recommend the potent 8x75RS, 8x68S and the great American 8 mm RM. All these three need a muzzle brake because of stout recoil. As someone else said before there is something magical to find about the 8 mms due to their final performance on game. + IMHO!
Please come with pros and cons, ideas and suggestions. Every good and passionate discussion is in need of those. gun)

 

[jkupper]

I am not very familiar with any of the calibers that you described, but they appear to be right in line with our large magnums.

The rimmed, or semi-rimmed bases along the tapered cases would make them perfect to be extracted from those single shot, break open rifles. Is this what gives the belted magnums an advantage in a break open gun? I would think that long, straight walled cases, such as the Remington Ultra Mag variations, would not work very well.

Currently, the is no one that I know near me who owns any guns chambered in European calibers. I would love to shoot them side-by-side with their American counterparts and compare. It would be a fun project

 

[HARPERC]

The only single shot I've owned was a Ruger #3, in .375 Winchester. I do think rimmed cartridges should almost always be used in these. Just a personal preference. Just read the prior post. I could make an exception for the .300 H&H.

 

[Varberger757]

The only single shot I've owned was a Ruger #3, in .375 Winchester. I do think rimmed cartridges should almost always be used in these. Just a personal preference. Just read the prior post. I could make an exception for the .300 H&H.

Actually are you right. The best suited rounds for break actions are the rimmed due to the extractor but comprises have to be made sometimes. BTW, you find can find a rimmed version of the 300 H & H, the so called 300 H & H Flanged Mag. S. E. gun)

 

[Crane]

I love the look of break action rifles and am currently fighting the urge to buy a full stocked version of the new BRNO. One thing you have to be careful of in break actions and magnum rounds is frame flex from what we would call bolt thrust in a bolt action rifle. Break actions are sleek, compact, elegant not to mention ambidextrous.