Bear spray vs Bullets

[J E Custom]

Sorry meant to write good discussion however ill take help from god or anyone else if I get attacked by a bear. And for the record...I give my permission for someone to shoot any bear that is attacking me.... please don't wait for him to stop.

No reason to apologize, You posted a good topic and it has brought many views and opinions.

The purpose of this site as I see it (Cant Speak for Len) is discussion and learning, so I think it has been a success .

Many are passionate about there beliefs and will express there opinions vigorously. It is there right and if they don't agree DONT TAKE IT PERSONALLY.

Rarely will you find 100% agreement with as many members as this site has.

You may have changed someone's opinion for or against Bear spray of simply renewed their faith in what they were doing, But at least we are all better informed.

Thanks again.

PS: I agree that If a bear is mauling me , I would hope that a friend would take action and shoot among us to give one of us some relief.

J E CUSTOM

 

[MontanaRifleman]

You are again questioning my honesty while misrepresenting what I stated.

The bear bit down on his head immediately and went to shaking him within the first five seconds. I never said anyone on the video made such a statement, it is an observation.

Secondly the bear did not react at all to the first dose of spray, he continued while both men were spraying him and then broke off the attack.

A couple of seconds is the difference between life and death. Had the bear been shot within the first couple of seconds the man might have survived. A bear that size however has the jaw power to crush and bite through your skull in a single bite.

Now I've been more than reasonable and polite. Question my honesty again and I'm done with you permanently.

You aren't scoring any points and you aren't convincing anyone here of anything other than your own obstinance.

Choose whatever methods of self defense you are comfortable with and so will the rest of us.

First, I'm not here to win any points. Like I said my purpose was to bring facts to light and dispel myths and there are a lot of myths and ignorance about bear spray floating around. When people start spreading BS then I'll address it. As it often happens, some peoples toes get stepped on the facts come to light. I am not here for a popularity contest.

Back in post #164 you wrote this...

n the video of the bear killing the man it took less than five seconds for the death blow to be delivered and even with two men blasting him with bear spray he continued long enough to ensure his victim was injured badly enough to ensure his death.

Which is at best an inaccurate account of what happened in the video. Then I called you on it. Then you come back with "... a second or two" which is closer to reality but still inaccurate. I have watched sequence several times, carefully following the time track The bear broke off the attack in less than a second form when it was initially sprayed. That's a fact.

BTW, there is nothing wrong with questioning someone's honesty. I did catch someone in these forums deliberately deceiving the members of this forum and they were almost immediately banned. I don't know you from Adam other than here in these forums. Out and out calling someone a liar without proof is a different which is something I never did. I can't read your mind or how it is that you don't get the facts straight. So I'll take you at your word that your inaccuracy is not intentional. So the only thing I can figure is that you are so biased that you can't/don't want to see the facts as they are.

Now I don't have a problem with being biased for guns. What has me scratching my head is the bias against spray, especially when you, as far as I know, have no first hand experience with spray, especially the newer products. How can you possibly make a sound judgment on something you know so little about?

It almost seems that some folks and their guns feel threatened by a product like spray. That is illogical. I certainly am not threatened. I love hunting, shooting and i love my guns. My signature tag says, "Molon Labe"... come and get them.

Choose whatever methods of self defense you are comfortable with and so will the rest of us

Bingo! Have I said anything different? Haven't I said this all along? Haven't I said this maybe a dozen times in this thread?

 

[MontanaRifleman]

This grizzly wasn't stopped by bear spray, but was stopped by a bullet. There were reportedly no witnesses.

Gun charge against man who shot Glacier grizzly bear dismissed

"Murphy, he said, did not fire his .357 revolver until the charging bear – a grizzly, Holden said DNA tests later confirmed – was 7 to 10 feet away, and not until bear spray discharged when the animal was 15 to 25 feet away failed to deter it."

"When Mr. Murphy first saw the bear it was running down a hill toward the other hikers," Holden said. "He yelled, 'Bear!' to warn them, and as soon as he yelled, the bear turned and came straight at him."

More on guns in national parks: Park Service: 4 Glacier gun incidents an anomaly

Murphy first discharged his bear spray using his left hand, and when that didn't stop the animal, fired with the .357 in his right hand, according to Holden.

"The bear fell back and was motionless," Holden said. Murphy "withdrew and double-timed it out of there, taking the two hikers who were behind him with him.

More info on guns in National Parks: Park Service: 4 Glacier gun incidents an anomaly

First off, I'm glad the chargers were dropped against this guy. As I already stated, being able to carry is a 2nd A right, inside or outside parks. Being able to carry but not being able to use the weapon in self defense is total BS. Good for him and good for the precedent the case set.

As far as the story goes, my first question is what type of spray did he have?

My next observation based on the reading is it sounds like he had both the spray and the 357 drawn, one in each hand. That seems a little odd to me. People usually carry either spray or a gun and seldom both but it is certainly possible he had both and if he was interviewed by the rangers on the spot it's probably true. But having both drawn at the same time seems odd.

I think it's possible that he discharged the spray at a greater distance than 15-25' and when the bear did not stop he fired the gun. If he waited to shoot a charging bear inside 15', that bear is basically on top of him.

Another observation is that the bear was not put down. In this case the bear fled, but bears don't always run when they're shot. "fight or flight".... sometimes flight.... and sometimes fight.

For all you semi auto fans, most of you are probably packing 40 S&W which is less potent than a 357 mag and IMO, a marginal round for killing bears. Like I mentioned before, my min would ba a 41 Mag shooting heavy hard cast bullets.

The guy only shot one round into the bear and now you have a wounded bear running around. I have no clue why he didn't pump more rounds into it. If you're going to shoot a bear, do your best to kill it.

Now I suppose some folks will say that this is proof that guns are better bear deterrence than spray. Not necessarily so. This is one anecdotal case with sketchy details. The study I linked earlier cites several case in which guns failed to sop bears from injuring or killing. I could surf the net for more cases. It has happened and it does happen. We could get into a ping pong match, you link this case and I link that one.... on and on ad nauseum. I'm not going to do that.

Bottom line, neither option is 100% full proof.

 

[Pdvdh]

Yeah, hard to say without the fine details. He hit this bear with a bullet however he didn't stop it with a shotgun-sized pattern of bear spray. Maybe he's right handed and can't fire bear spray left handed...

Pretty sure he'll be using bullets the next time around, if the story he tells is factual. I'd like to read the statements that were made to the Park Service immediately following the incident - before he hired an attorney to fight the charges.

Once the attorneys get involved, it's all degrades into lies. Lie enough to avoid conviction, but not enough to be blatantly caught at it and sent to the slammer.

 

[jmden]

Jon,
I haven't seen the outcome perhaps you know, the hiker that shot a bear in Glacier last year was charged with discharging the firearm. Specifically it was stated it's legal to carry in the Park but illegal to fire it.

Strange case, one report has him spraying the bear then shooting it?

Sorry, Carl. Just saw this. I think phorwath's linked article covered that pretty well. That seemed, amazingly enough, to be a fairly well written article.

Was in Glacier last summer for a few days and don't remember hearing any shooting!

 

[jmden]

First off, I'm glad the chargers were dropped against this guy. As I already stated, being able to carry is a 2nd A right, inside or outside parks. Being able to carry but not being able to use the weapon in self defense is total BS. Good for him and good for the precedent the case set.

As far as the story goes, my first question is what type of spray did he have?

My next observation based on the reading is it sounds like he had both the spray and the 357 drawn, one in each hand. That seems a little odd to me. People usually carry either spray or a gun and seldom both but it is certainly possible he had both and if he was interviewed by the rangers on the spot it's probably true. But having both drawn at the same time seems odd.

I think it's possible that he discharged the spray at a greater distance than 15-25' and when the bear did not stop he fired the gun. If he waited to shoot a charging bear inside 15', that bear is basically on top of him.

Another observation is that the bear was not put down. In this case the bear fled, but bears don't always run when they're shot. "fight or flight".... sometimes flight.... and sometimes fight.

For all you semi auto fans, most of you are probably packing 40 S&W which is less potent than a 357 mag and IMO, a marginal round for killing bears. Like I mentioned before, my min would ba a 41 Mag shooting heavy hard cast bullets.

The guy only shot one round into the bear and now you have a wounded bear running around. I have no clue why he didn't pump more rounds into it. If you're going to shoot a bear, do your best to kill it.

Now I suppose some folks will say that this is proof that guns are better bear deterrence than spray. Not necessarily so. This is one anecdotal case with sketchy details. The study I linked earlier cites several case in which guns failed to sop bears from injuring or killing. I could surf the net for more cases. It has happened and it does happen. We could get into a ping pong match, you link this case and I link that one.... on and on ad nauseum. I'm not going to do that.

Bottom line, neither option is 100% full proof.

Yeah, there's really not much that we can determine for sure from the description we have and even the rangers reports may not be accurate...so may places along the path to where these charges were dropped where less than accurate information could've been given, unfortunately. Sure would like to be able to question that guy, but like phorwath said, once the lawyers get involved...

I've got warm loaded 40SW (180g XTP, pushed by 8.2g (I think) of Longshot, at 1200+ fps--about 600 ft. lbs.) and a warm loaded .357 with 185g Beartooth Bullets hard cast pushed by 16 g of H110 at 1350-1400fps plus for about 800 ft. lbs. I still feel like the .357 is not enough and that is the most potent .357 load I've ever run across. It's a well known load developed by the Beartooth Bullets and so far has worked just find in my SW. Am planning on stepping up to 300g XTP-MAG (MAG designation means it has a thicker than normal jacket to hold together in tough situations--sounds like a good bear bullet to me.) .50 projectiles doing nearly or at 1600fps soon...we'll see how that goes... Not too many griz in this state although they've been spotted less than an hours drive from where I'm typing this. But we just had a black bear killed, I think in 2013, that was over 600 lbs. in this state just a few miles from where some relatives live. That's alot of bear...and a .357 or .40SW is looking pretty puny to put a stop to 600 lbs. of ticked off or hunting bruin.

 

[Wyodog]

No reason to apologize, You posted a good topic and it has brought many views and opinions

J E CUSTOM

I'm only apologizing the typo on the word "good" not for anything else.

 

[HARPERC]

I brought that case up not to bolster one argument over the other, just to point out using a firearm in the Park is likely to bring charges. Kind of a speed trap mentality, it might cost you more to defend yourself in court than the fine.

The chaotic statements could originate either side.

I agree my choice of a handgun is part experience, part emotion, or resistance to change.

 

[MontanaRifleman]

I found this article while looking for another story. Not looking for a debate here... just saying.

When I'm hunting and I've got my rifle I don't carry spray or a handgun. I've reconsidered though for the dressing, quartering and packing phase of the hunt. A can of spray on the hip is a lot more handy than a rifle leaning against the tree while you're dressing your game. In these parts, bears have been know to come to the sound of gun fire during the hunting season to feed on gut piles. I also always have one in the chamber unless I'm climbing over deadfall or some other precarious situation.

"I walked a few feet and there was a bear, just about 50 feet away," Rosen said Tuesday.

The animal had been sleeping, but rose immediately to its feet and came after him, he said, grunting and woofing as it ran.

Rosen turned and ran across the creek, but it was no use. The bear was too fast.

"I ran about 10 feet in the time it took him to run 50 feet," he said.

While running, he jacked a shell into the chamber of his 30.06 rifle and when he hit the far side of the stream he turned and fired from the hip.

"I'm not sure where I hit him, but it didn't even slow him down," he said.

That's when Rosen tripped and fell "flat on my face."

The bear was on him immediately, he said. It gave one "big old growl," then sank its teeth into his left shoulder.

He said he isn't sure how many times the bear bit him, but it lifted the 170-pound man off the ground and shook him "like a rag doll."

"I was in his mouth and I was bouncing around, off the ground at a couple points," he said. "At first, it felt like a big vise. Then, when he shook me, I could feel things start to tear."

After having his frame rattled like that, Rosen realized his only option was to play dead.

"He was just so powerful, there wasn't much to do but let him chew on me," he said. "I was out of options, except to play dead."

Fortunately, that option worked.


When Rosen went limp, the bear walked away. After he heard it leave, he picked himself up and started walking back toward his truck.

His wife, Cielia, had grown suspicious when she heard Rosen shoot so quickly after leaving her, and had begun walking toward him.

Together, they drove to Livingston Memorial Hospital, where doctors put "a whole bunch" of stitches in him and kept him overnight.

He has a 3-inch gash in his neck that exposed his collarbone. He's got deep puncture wounds and the bear "tore a bunch of meat away from the bone" on the back of his arm, he said.

Rosen has been around both grizzly and black bears in the woods he said, but couldn't tell if this animal was a black bear or a grizzly.

He said it was dark brown, almost black and "the size of a washing machine."

"I found some bear blood. He definitely hit the bear," said Jim Miller, a Montana Department of Fish, Wildlife and Parks warden who investigated the scene.

He could find no tracks or hair that would let him identify the bear's species, but nearby residents had reported seeing a black bear in the area.

The extent of the animal's injury was impossible to determine, he said.

"It's hard to say," he said. "They're tough animals."

http://www.bozemandailychronicle.co...cle_c838e649-c271-58ad-b89e-eda3984e0f1f.html

When Rosen went limp, the bear walked away.

This almost always happens if you play dead when a bear attacks you being territorial. That is why I say please do not start spraying lead in my direction if a bear is on top of me thank you. If the bear is being predatory, that's another matter.

In any case, the bear will eventually turn its attention toward you and leave me behind. That's when you can start shooting.

 

[jmden]

I found this article while looking for another story. Not looking for a debate here... just saying.

When I'm hunting and I've got my rifle I don't carry spray or a handgun. I've reconsidered though for the dressing, quartering and packing phase of the hunt. A can of spray on the hip is a lot more handy than a rifle leaning against the tree while you're dressing your game. In these parts, bears have been know to come to the sound of gun fire during the hunting season to feed on gut piles. I also always have one in the chamber unless I'm climbing over deadfall or some other precarious situation.

This almost always happens if you play dead when a bear attacks you being territorial. That is why I say please do not start spraying lead in my direction if a bear is on top of me thank you. If the bear is being predatory, that's another matter.

In any case, the bear will eventually turn its attention toward you and leave me behind. That's when you can start shooting.

Reminds me when I've been a little jumpy when solo backpack hunting back in designated wilderness areas dressing out a muley after dark in known griz and black bear and wolf country with a long range rig a couple of steps away. Not a very good weapon for in close at night... Every few minutes I'd put the headlamp on 'hi-beam' and scan the area occasionally seeing eyes staring back at me. From best I could tell, it was more deer coming to the alpine meadow to feed only to realize that they didn't want to be there because I was there. By the time I was done boning out the deer, there were no more eyes around. Still a little spooky... Would've felt better with something on my hip, but, for that hunt especially, ever ounce is scrutinized and there's no way I'm added 3lbs plus to the load on my back.

 

[Wyodog]

Reminds me when I've been a little jumpy when solo backpack hunting back in designated wilderness areas dressing out a muley after dark in known griz and black bear and wolf country with a long range rig a couple of steps away. Not a very good weapon for in close at night... Every few minutes I'd put the headlamp on 'hi-beam' and scan the area occasionally seeing eyes staring back at me. From best I could tell, it was more deer coming to the alpine meadow to feed only to realize that they didn't want to be there because I was there. By the time I was done boning out the deer, there were no more eyes around. Still a little spooky... Would've felt better with something on my hip, but, for that hunt especially, ever ounce is scrutinized and there's no way I'm added 3lbs plus to the load on my back.

Have you considered building a fire while processing game after dark? Not that I've tried it as only just now considered it and we have a lot of work at hand already without building a fire. I'm not sure if it helps or not but it makes me feel better when I have a fire at my back. I guess I don't really know if anyone has been attacked by a bear or not while in close proximity to a fire. I'd be interested to if anyone else has info on this.

 

[rooster740]

I found this article while looking for another story. Not looking for a debate here... just saying.

When I'm hunting and I've got my rifle I don't carry spray or a handgun. I've reconsidered though for the dressing, quartering and packing phase of the hunt. A can of spray on the hip is a lot more handy than a rifle leaning against the tree while you're dressing your game. In these parts, bears have been know to come to the sound of gun fire during the hunting season to feed on gut piles. I also always have one in the chamber unless I'm climbing over deadfall or some other precarious situation.

This almost always happens if you play dead when a bear attacks you being territorial. That is why I say please do not start spraying lead in my direction if a bear is on top of me thank you. If the bear is being predatory, that's another matter.

In any case, the bear will eventually turn its attention toward you and leave me behind. That's when you can start shooting.

I went to school with this kid. This incident happened about 4-5 miles from my front door. The same front door that a bear killed a yearling Suffolk ewe about 50 feet from 2 falls ago.

I know too many people locally that have been attacked by bears and lived but some had to kill the bear. None got in trouble with the law.
Doctor bills are more then lawyer bills! I am going home to see my wife and kids, besides this is a long range hunting forum! Wth! What kind of spray can hit a bear at 600 yards anyways! Geez guys!
Buy more bullets!

 

[WildRose]

First, I'm not here to win any points. Like I said my purpose was to bring facts to light and dispel myths and there are a lot of myths and ignorance about bear spray floating around. When people start spreading BS then I'll address it. As it often happens, some peoples toes get stepped on the facts come to light. I am not here for a popularity contest.

Back in post #164 you wrote this...



Which is at best an inaccurate account of what happened in the video. Then I called you on it. Then you come back with "... a second or two" which is closer to reality but still inaccurate. I have watched sequence several times, carefully following the time track The bear broke off the attack in less than a second form when it was initially sprayed. That's a fact.

What I wrote was correct and accurate. The first blast of spray did nothing to stop the attack. Even as both men blasted him at the same time the attack continued.

According to the trainer, the initial bite was applied to his friends head just as the bear had been trained to do in the Will Farrel Movie.

That was the fatal bite all that followed was the man bleeding out.

 

[WildRose]

Have you considered building a fire while processing game after dark? Not that I've tried it as only just now considered it and we have a lot of work at hand already without building a fire. I'm not sure if it helps or not but it makes me feel better when I have a fire at my back. I guess I don't really know if anyone has been attacked by a bear or not while in close proximity to a fire. I'd be interested to if anyone else has info on this.

Been a whole lot of bears walk right by a campfire to raid a tent or bear bag.

I'd think it would be perhaps more of a deterrent in a wilderness area where the bears are not accustomed to being around people but anywhere in proximity to a campground I'd think it might even work against you since fire=people=food to such bears.