Barrel Contour vs Accuracy Potential

[rcoody]

I wish I had enough experience with barrels to answer your question, but I do not and it does not seem that you are getting the answers you are looking for. So I would suggest calling the barrel makers and asking them I know the guys at Bartlien Barrels and know they have a ton of experience shooting all barrel types and am sure they would be more than willing to talk with you, and answer your question.

I will tell you what they will say. I have talked to bartlien and kraiger and shilen. Barrel contour has little to do with accuracy unless you are talking about multiple shots.

That said you don't see many light sportster barrels at a benchrest match. Heating up takes a while with an 1.25" barrel. A heavy gun is much easier to get on target and keep it there.

the decision is how much weight you want to pack. If you are going to drive your truck to a tree stand and sit up there all day then weight is really not a factor. If you are going to backpack into the rockies at 10,000 feet you will feel every oz.

personally a rifle around 8# with the scope is plenty light. With my edge stock and #3 barrel it is just barrel heavy enough for me to get a rock solid hold.

 

[Pdvdh]

Many like to run with minimum of #5 contours, is what I've gathered.

I have a lot of sporter weight barrels. These would be like #2, #3, & #4 contours.

Something that's not been mentioned in this Thread is my experience that load development takes more time and effort with the lighter contour barrels, compared to heavier contour barrels. They're less rigid and more finicky.

Lighter contour barrels also heat up more quickly than heavier, thicker barrels, and I've had groups open up on the third and fourth shots with some of my rifles. If you're committed to firing 5-shot groups, then I advise you go with a #5 or heavier barrel contour. My own opinion is that 3-shot groups are more than sufficient to determine group size. I don't like to use up barrel life with heavy powder charges by trying to print 5-shot groups.

It's true that groups ONLY get larger, the more shots fired. It's impossible for them to shrink. But how many shots are you planning on firing at an animal? I have a couple lightweight Tikka T3s that will start to open up by the third shot. It's a complete waste of time, ammo, and barrel life shooting 5-shot groups with my two Tikka T3s in 7mm Rem Mag.

 

[Rich Coyle]

Hondo64d,

Maybe this is not going to address your question, burt here goes.

Have you considered a Proof Research carbon fiber barrel? They are very boastful about their barrel's accuracy. Also they say you can fire lots of shots quickly without rupturing the fibers.

I have a Christensen Arms carbon fiber 26" that matches a Sendero light contour. I think it is .925" at the muzzle. It weighs the same as a Weatherby Mark V six lug action ultralight 24" fluted factory barrel. Both barrels are forty ounces.

I don't recommend Christensen Arms because the company seems to think one minute of angle is good enough.

 

[Trickymissfit]

How many times in a hunting situation are you going to get off more than 3 shots. I know it can and does happen, but if I can put 3 shots where I want them and don't have game down, the animal is either out of my range ability wise, or not presenting a type of shot I should be taking. I would worry much more about the accuracy of the cold bore first shot on a hunting rifle compared to where shots 4 and 5 are going. But that's just me. Good luck on your quest.

Because three shots are the bare minimum, and five is the true medium to accuracy. Just take your time, and let the barrel cool down between each shot.
glt

 

[mobenzowner]

Once again, three shots is statistically not a reliable predictor of where the next shot is going to land. If you don't believe this, shoot a three shot group, let the barrel cool, and shoot another three shot group at the same POA. I PROMISE you the six total shots will be noticeably bigger than the original three. If you want to blame this on changing conditions, then do it at an indoor range. The results will be nearly the same.

Anyway, I want more accuracy because I enjoy having it. I shoot a lot, and only a small percentage of rounds fired are on game. I enjoy long range steel and it is very gratifying to have a high level of confidence that my bullet is going where I aim. I had hoped that with all the experience on this board someone would have chambered/shot enough different contours to be able to share some trends they have observed in regard to contour vs accuracy potential.

Thanks,

John

Hondo,
I understand your reasoning completely ,and am sorry if I appeared negative in my post. I certainly agree 5 shot groups are much more indicative than 3, with 3 being overall a poor representative of overall accuracy. I personally prefer 7 shot groups as a compromise between 5 or 10. But in my opinion its the first 1, or maybe up to 3 shots, that count on a hunting rifle. I understand your quest for more accuracy and wish you best of luck on it!!

 

[engineer40]

Have you ever shot multiple three shot groups at the same POA? I have done it countless times and found that three shot groups by themselves are not a very good indicator of where the next shot is going to go. I have often shot tiny three shot groups only to have the next one be MUCH bigger. If I shoot multiple three shot groups at the same POA, I get a much clearer picture of how the gun is going to shoot. And, by letting the barrel cool between those groups, I cannot blame any inconsistency on barrel heat. When doing this, I have seen, that more often than not, what might normally be thought of as a flyer really isn't, but is actually an indicator of how well that load is going to shoot. For me, three shot groups have been able to tell me that a load may not be that great, but virtually never tells me that a load IS a good one.

Based on most of the suggestions offered, I don't think everyone has read your posts in detail.

I agree with everything you've stated. You're not talking about heating problems. You're talking about accuracy differences between barrel contours. I also agree, there are no such things as "flyers" in the way most people talk about them. You have to consider the flyers as part of the rifle accuracy.

And I do the same exact thing... I use 3 shot groups to weed out the loads that are apparently not accurate. Then the best looking of those I will usually load 5 each to narrow it down. Not always, but if I'm still not sure on the best load, I will load 10 each and shoot.

Thick contours are easier for most everyone to shoot better. Load development seems to be easier and any inconsistancy in holding the rifle don't seem to affect the POI as much.

I understand your frustrations. I have been there myself. But I do have thin barrels that shoot very accurate, much better than 1 MOA. And they are on factory barrels, so I have to think your much better barrels can do at least as well.

I do hold my lightweight rifles different than a heavier rifle. I hold them much tighter and also keep my left hand tighly gripping the forearm. The heavier rifles my left hand stays back on the rear bag. I'm not saying this is the proper way, but it has helped my consistency with lightweight rifles.

Try Googling some techniques for holding/shooting lightweight hunting rifles. Have you tried shooting with a sling? Have you tried shooting without physically moving between shots (only cycling the bolt but never breaking cheek weld)? Are you sure your scope parallax is adjusted correctly? I would also suggest trying a scope tube mounted bubble level. That really helped me have consistent POI even at shorter ranges.

 

[engineer40]

Oh another thing... this might sound odd and I am hesitant to post it.

I have put in a lot of effort learning trigger control. Enough to openly say I almost never flinch when pulling the trigger. But on high volume shooting days it is still mentally difficult to not, like load development days.

When you read on forums you would start to believe that you must be the only person who struggles with flinching. Everyone claims to be unaffected by recoil, etc.

I have shot with enough people to know the exact opposite it true. Guys that shoot a lot often still struggle with not flinching.

So on those load development, high volume shooting days, I double up my ear protection. Not because the rifles sound too loud if I dont. But because it really does help you mentally not to flinch. Even on rifles that dont have muzzle brakes it helps. Flinching comes from expecting both recoil and muzzle blast.

If you havent tried it, double up on your ear protection and see if it helps.

 

[rcoody]

Oh another thing... this might sound odd and I am hesitant to post it.

I have put in a lot of effort learning trigger control. Enough to openly say I almost never flinch when pulling the trigger. But on high volume shooting days it is still mentally difficult to not, like load development days.

When you read on forums you would start to believe that you must be the only person who struggles with flinching. Everyone claims to be unaffected by recoil, etc.

I have shot with enough people to know the exact opposite it true. Guys that shoot a lot often still struggle with not flinching.

So on those load development, high volume shooting days, I double up my ear protection. Not because the rifles sound too loud if I dont. But because it really does help you mentally not to flinch. Even on rifles that dont have muzzle brakes it helps. Flinching comes from expecting both recoil and muzzle blast.

If you havent tried it, double up on your ear protection and see if it helps.

that is why my favorite range guns are 6mm. no recoil to speak of and less muzzle blast. Makes it much easier to reinforce proper breathing, trigger control, consistent hold when you are not dealing with the recoil and muzzle blast of a 30 cal magnum. When I do load development on heavy recoiling rifles I use a lead sled. Now I would never use it for sighting in and I fine tune my load without it but no one can shoot a heavy recoiling rifle 25 or 50 times without reacting to it.

practice with a fun gun and develop good habits and then when the time comes you will do all the right things.

 

[Shane Lindsey]

FWIW I put a "magnum" taper Hart on a 270 win.

It provided enough weight/stability to give me what I would consider good hunting accuracy (1/2 MOA) for a 5 shot rapid fire (as fast as I could work the bolt and re-engage). Did that at 600 yards often enough to have confidence in POA/POI consistency. You'll have to pick the range for your particular cartridge like I did.

This made the total weight acceptable for a carry weight rifle and still provide me with some weight for stability. Big heavy guns are fun, but humping them around isn't for me anymore.
Good luck with your quest.

Shane

 

[Plinker147]

Some have said that it's not the contour but the shoot ability of the heavy barrels that shows the consistent accuracy. My question is when your shooting off sand bags and lead sleds for groups arnt you are taking the shoot ability question out of it? Other factors like heat, barrel rigidness should be the factors? wouldn't you See more lighter barrels in competition if barrel thickness wasn't a component it of accuracy? Asking questions to those who know more about barrels than I do.

 

[Country Bumpkin]

This is a pretty interesting thread so far. I don't have the necessary experience to weigh in on it, but I have noticed that it seems like some folks have missed a few points made by the OP. I'm not trying to start a troll-battle, I just think that this thread has a lot of really knowledgable folks posting already . . . so there's a very high likelihood that us noobies stand a chance to learn some valuable stuff from it if we keep it on track.

1. He's stated that he demands better accuracy than most (with regards to hunting rifles) because he enjoys shooting and hitting steel at long distances. There's been a lot of debate about cold bore accuracy, 3-shot grous, 5-shot and even 10-shot groups. It seems like that's a very opinionated debate, but to answer the OP's questions, we need to go back and look at what he's trying to accomplish . . . he doesn't require accuracy/consistency for cold bore, 3-shot or 5-shot groups, he requires it for fun sessions of shooting steel, so multiple successive shots that likely won't allow the barrel to cool very much. With that in mind, this is going to be his main hunting rifle, so packing weight is a major consideration. What's the best compromise of lightest contour verses consistency and accuracy.

2. Some of the replies include folks asking "did you check this . . . " or "are you doing that . . . ?". The OP told us that he's experimented ad nauseum with multiple manufacturers in multiple light contours, I'd have to believe that he's a pretty experienced shooter and that we can skip all of "the usual diagnosis steps" that are engaged on noobies. With that, we'd also have to assume that he's put in the time to become a proficient shooter (form, equipment, environmental considerations all having been finely tuned and accounted for) . . . so we don't need to debate whether he's got the right stock or if he's shooting on bags, in a sled or over a log in the field. We need to be debating barrel contour, that's what he's after.

3. Not calling anyone out on this one, just a question to consider for folks that have already engaged in this thread. How many of you pros have shot lighter contour aftermarket barrels (not factory)? To take it further, can you provide us all with some control data that might help?

Countour
Brand
Finished Length
Caliber
Bullet Weight
relative accuracy (if you know it would do 5-shots in 3/4 MOA, or 10 shots in 1 MOA, or .....)

Thanks all, again, I'm not trying to call anyone out or start a flame session, I just want to see this thread continue in the direction as directed by the OP, I think a lot of us hunters are very interested in the topic.

 

[Bbear]

This is a pretty interesting thread so far. I don't have the necessary experience to weigh in on it, but I have noticed that it seems like some folks have missed a few points made by the OP. I'm not trying to start a troll-battle, I just think that this thread has a lot of really knowledgable folks posting already . . . so there's a very high likelihood that us noobies stand a chance to learn some valuable stuff from it if we keep it on track.

1. He's stated that he demands better accuracy than most (with regards to hunting rifles) because he enjoys shooting and hitting steel at long distances. There's been a lot of debate about cold bore accuracy, 3-shot groups, 5-shot and even 10-shot groups. It seems like that's a very opinionated debate, but to answer the OP's questions, we need to go back and look at what he's trying to accomplish . . . he doesn't require accuracy/consistency for cold bore, 3-shot or 5-shot groups, he requires it for fun sessions of shooting steel, so multiple successive shots that likely won't allow the barrel to cool very much. With that in mind, this is going to be his main hunting rifle, so packing weight is a major consideration. What's the best compromise of lightest contour verses consistency and accuracy.

2. Some of the replies include folks asking "did you check this . . . " or "are you doing that . . . ?". The OP told us that he's experimented ad nauseum with multiple manufacturers in multiple light contours, I'd have to believe that he's a pretty experienced shooter and that we can skip all of "the usual diagnosis steps" that are engaged on noobies. With that, we'd also have to assume that he's put in the time to become a proficient shooter (form, equipment, environmental considerations all having been finely tuned and accounted for) . . . so we don't need to debate whether he's got the right stock or if he's shooting on bags, in a sled or over a log in the field. We need to be debating barrel contour, that's what he's after.

3. Not calling anyone out on this one, just a question to consider for folks that have already engaged in this thread. How many of you pros have shot lighter contour aftermarket barrels (not factory)? To take it further, can you provide us all with some control data that might help?

Countour
Brand
Finished Length
Caliber
Bullet Weight
relative accuracy (if you know it would do 5-shots in 3/4 MOA, or 10 shots in 1 MOA, or .....)

Thanks all, again, I'm not trying to call anyone out or start a flame session, I just want to see this thread continue in the direction as directed by the OP, I think a lot of us hunters are very interested in the topic.

- Personal opinion only => contour may vary based upon finished barrel length. For an 18" barrel to still be portable, you might get away with something in the varmint or larger diameter. For a 26" barrel, to stay within whatever weight the OP wants, they might be limited to a #3 or maybe even a #2 and still stay within the weight/accuracy limitations. For the shorter barrel length, I'd think something in a #4 or #5/Sendero size would be good. For the longer barrels, he might stick with a #3.

Not a 'pro' by any means and only a few barrels to my name, I've stuck with 22"-26" in #3 as my compromise.

 

[blacktail 8541]

I've shot many light weight customs from various manufactures, I've also shot more than a few heavy weights. When I left the USMC, the standard weight of barrel on the M40A1 was a 25 inch Douglas in the m24 profile. The rifle weighed right at 17 lbs. It could be shot all day at it's sustained rated rate of fire and not loose accuracy. On My hunting rifles that have barrel contour of a Bartlien 2b to a Lilja #4. You can not do that. The smaller the profile, the faster they heat up and start to open up. Each barrel is a little different as to how mush they open up.

Where I would look for consistency with longer strings of fire and still be capable of packing a rifle into the high country without excessive weight would be in the lite palma contour. This in a length of 25 or 26 inches. The longer the barrel the bigger the diameter it needs to be to maintain stiffness and heat dissipation qualities.

 

[engineer40]

2. Some of the replies include folks asking "did you check this . . . " or "are you doing that . . . ?". The OP told us that he's experimented ad nauseum with multiple manufacturers in multiple light contours, I'd have to believe that he's a pretty experienced shooter and that we can skip all of "the usual diagnosis steps" that are engaged on noobies. With that, we'd also have to assume that he's put in the time to become a proficient shooter (form, equipment, environmental considerations all having been finely tuned and accounted for) . . . so we don't need to debate whether he's got the right stock or if he's shooting on bags, in a sled or over a log in the field. We need to be debating barrel contour, that's what he's after..

The bottom line is that thin barrels can be super accurate. If his custom thin barrels are only shooting 1 MOA, then there is something else going on.

If he wants a rifle to blast steel at, have a separate rifle for that with a heavy barrel that won't heat up as fast.

I'd say the most popular contour for long range hunting is anything similar to a Sendero contour. But those aren't especially light.

Hope that helps.