B.c. Crazy!

[Skimbleshanks]

I feel that I am one of the people that this topic is aimed at. At first I was enamored with the super high bc bullets that Richard Graves used to make, But I then looked at what "I" actually do when I am hunting and still chose Bergers as the first bullet to test as I do believe that you can't kill what you can't hit; and Bergers have a reputation for accuracy as well as being endorsed by the manufacturer as a hunting bullet. They performed wonderfully during load development, and I quickly found a good load. While debating what bullet to use I did notice that the Bergers had a reputation as being kind of fragile and explosive, thus I chose a heavier than normal bullet for my use. 175grn .30 cal as opposed to the normal for my area 150grn. It turns out that I ended up at a good mid point as far as long range trajectory and terminal performance gos. I think that this issue is very individualistic and as most things in life go, compromises will have to be made and only the end user can determine what is right for them. Discussions such as this spread information and can only help people like myself make more informed decisions.

 

[Boss Hoss]

To the OP---you are correct in that too many folks get way to twisted up about the BC issue. For long range the shot to shot deviation is more important by far.

 

[elkaholic]

This thread was started 6 years ago, as you can see. Bullets continue to be produced in the super high b.c. variety, and bullets that aren't. There have been a lot of technological changes even since 2012 as far as bullet making goes. I thought it might be a good idea to revisit this and get everyones opinion for 2018. I am still a big proponent of b.c. for the type of shooting that I do and the type of chamberings that I design, but I STILL feel that for many, we don't even consider other bullets? Why is this? Is it because we all want the biggest, baddest, fastest, etc., or is it partly that we push it so much that everyone just automatically assumes we need b.c. at all cost?
LET THE BATTLE BEGIN!

 

[257 Blackjack]

If the game is uncertain conditions where the first or second shots count, reducing the effects of Wind Deflection is huge. The other variables are now pretty determinable with good equipment. For Long Range Hunting, Blind Stages in Tactical / Practical matches, and ELR. BC is a major performance factor. A group of bullets BC deviation over x number of required shots in a certain discipline is huge too and while folks focus on SD of their MV there is also bullet to bullet standard deviation as well, so consistency shows up at longer and longer ranges. That being said, a more efficient bullet will offset a certain portion of that deviation.

Of course there are short range and midrange target cats who know or have a lot of evidence to support that lower BC flat base bullets shoot about as accurately as you can shoot a rifle but if your interest or applications reach past 800-1500+ yards it's hard to give up a nice boattail.

The old paradigm was Muzzle Velocity:Trajectory.

More and more field style shooters are thinking about shot control and prediction power which is recoil:wind deflection and how those two work together. Still many chase MV trying to solve the trajectory and wind problem adding unnecessary recoil to the equation when much of that efficiency could be designed in, a la BC.

I guess you can see how I lean. Efficiency across the board for me.

 

[elkaholic]

I tend to be in that camp personally, because of the way I hunt and shoot.

 

[dig]

Great thread, thank you for reengageing. Most people really don't define what they are trying to do/distance they will most likely shoot and look for the right bullet to meet the need. I Was recently working up loads for 378 Wetherby for a fall Elk hunt, I was enamored with a certain bullets high BC. When I actually ran numbers and discovered that until I reach over 900 yards this weight, high BC bullet was actually a disadvantage. Most of my shooting opportunities based on terrain let alone judging trophy quality will be in the 300-600 yard range. The choice was clear, a mid weight bullet with a proven BC was the obvious choice.

 

[elkaholic]

Great thread, thank you for reengageing. Most people really don't define what they are trying to do/distance they will most likely shoot and look for the right bullet to meet the need. I Was recently working up loads for 378 Wetherby for a fall Elk hunt, I was enamored with a certain bullets high BC. When I actually ran numbers and discovered that until I reach over 900 yards this weight, high BC bullet was actually a disadvantage. Most of my shooting opportunities based on terrain let alone judging trophy quality will be in the 300-600 yard range. The choice was clear, a mid weight bullet with a proven BC was the obvious choice.

It's all about application!
I guess I should add for future posters that I am primarily thinking of hunting here. Obviously, long range target is a different story.

 

[Greyfox]

My views on BC haven't changed much in 6 years. I have since taken more shots +1000 yard targets then I can count and dozens of animals at 500-1000+ yards. The high BC, VLD styled bullet performance on game has been proven out with a solid sampling of game I have taken over the past six years. The benefits of retained velocity and better wind drift values, well verified. The biggest difference since six years ago is the advancements in chronographs. Six years ago I placed more trust in the BC then my velocity. due to an ingrained skepticism with the results from optical chronographs. Most of my calibrations were made adjusting velocity. With the Magnetspeed and Lab Radar I have far greater confidence in recorded velocities and I have found myself fine tuning BC. This has resulted in greater hit precision, and the realization that published BC's are only an estimate that needs to be verified. IMO.

 

[257 Blackjack]

Great thread, thank you for reengageing. Most people really don't define what they are trying to do/distance they will most likely shoot and look for the right bullet to meet the need. I Was recently working up loads for 378 Wetherby for a fall Elk hunt, I was enamored with a certain bullets high BC. When I actually ran numbers and discovered that until I reach over 900 yards this weight, high BC bullet was actually a disadvantage. Most of my shooting opportunities based on terrain let alone judging trophy quality will be in the 300-600 yard range. The choice was clear, a mid weight bullet with a proven BC was the obvious choice.

If I primarily only hunted out to 800-900 yards then there would be a lot of very usable bullets in the middle-band of ballistic performance to choose from, but since I grow very accustomed and second-natured to competition loads that preclude those types of mid-weight bullets competitively it only makes sense to use that setup for the same repeatability and accuracy that I'm used to, and can do the close up, mid range and the far out stuff.

If I ever get to go on truly Big or Dangerous game hunts of course the preferences would go out the window really fast lol.

 

[dig]

My views on BC haven't changed much in 6 years. I have since taken more shots +1000 yard targets then I can count and dozens of animals at 500-1000+ yards. The high BC, VLD styled bullet performance on game has been proven out with a solid sampling of game I have taken over the past six years. The benefits of retained velocity and better wind drift values, well verified. The biggest difference since six years ago is the advancements in chronographs. Six years ago I placed more trust in the BC then my velocity. due to an ingrained skepticism with the results from optical chronographs. Most of my calibrations were made adjusting velocity. With the Magnetspeed and Lab Radar I have far greater confidence in recorded velocities and I have found myself fine tuning BC. This has resulted in greater hit precision, and the realization that published BC's are only an estimate that needs to be verified. IMO.

Same here, I would constantly tweak velocity. Now I trust velocity and what I am finding is there are lot of overstated BCs the for velocity I'm shooting, maybe the manufactures are just optimistic, NOT. Also one brand consistently understates BC, Barnes. Are they using more conservative velocity?

 

[Tikkamike]

This thread was started 6 years ago, as you can see. Bullets continue to be produced in the super high b.c. variety, and bullets that aren't. There have been a lot of technological changes even since 2012 as far as bullet making goes. I thought it might be a good idea to revisit this and get everyones opinion for 2018. I am still a big proponent of b.c. for the type of shooting that I do and the type of chamberings that I design, but I STILL feel that for many, we don't even consider other bullets? Why is this? Is it because we all want the biggest, baddest, fastest, etc., or is it partly that we push it so much that everyone just automatically assumes we need b.c. at all cost?
LET THE BATTLE BEGIN!

I reread your post and I thought I was reading my own post because it mirrored my thoughts exactly, i was a little confused when I saw that it was your post! ad I still could NOT agree more.

 

[RockyMtnMT]

Thanks Rich for digging this up.

Rich and I were on the phone the other day and he told me about this thread and I asked him to find it if he could.

As a bullet maker I have lots of thoughts on this. As a hunter my thoughts are directed toward the sport. After all it is hunting that has gotten me into the bullet business. Our bullet business is the culmination of years of searching for a better bullet. Probably the biggest thing that pushed both Brian and I was meat damage. Both of us grew up hunting because we needed the meat. Absolutely violated me to make a solid behind the shoulder shot and lose the onside shoulder to bloodshot meat.

As hunters we figure there are 2 things that matter most and neither should be sacrificed for the other. Accuracy and terminal performance. If you don't have consistent accuracy then your probability of a good hit are reduced and if you sacrifice terminal performance at one end of the impact velocity scale or the other, then your probability of a clean kill goes down. This to me becomes a balancing act that must be paid attention to.

My long range pursuit has evolved when it comes to hunting big game. Totally a personal thing. I now kind of look at 1000 as a cut off point due to time of flight and uncontrolled atmospheric conditions. This does not mean that I will not take a 1200y shot again if all is right. I just am no longer trying to find that shot just to see if I can get it done on the animal. I look at hunting from the muzzle out to what ever the realistic long range is for the hunter. Most all of us have spent countless time and resources working on the 1000y plus shot only to go out and take our game at under 400y. These shorter normal range shots just seem easier to come up with or present themselves more often. I personally look hard at my hunting rig for max point blank range. For those who don't know, that is the range that your setup will hit a 5" radius when held center. The farther out this distance is the more lethal I am as a hunter. If I have a rifle that is set up to hold hair out to 400+ yards and then use dial ups after that out to my personal/equipment max, I am very confident. Inside 450y animals are often much more aware of my presence and time to get a shot off is limited. Beyond this distance the animals are typically not aware of my presence and time to make solid adjustments for wind and drop is more available.

To me this conversation comes down to the rabbit and the tortoise. At some point down range the heavier slower higher bc bullet will always pass up the faster lower bc bullet. Question is at what point down range does this happen. Often the rabbit continues to win the race for wind and drop past the point of range comfort or usable vel. I see lots of guys come on here looking for a fast flat rifle out to relatively long range, like a 300 rum. Inevitably the first advise they will get is to load it with the heaviest highest bc bullet that the market offers. Suddenly they have loaded their new hot rod down to 30-06 speed and have 30-06 performance out to 800y before the heavy bullet starts to take over. Or if you compare the big heavy to a more moderate weight bullet in the rum, the big heavy can't overcome the much faster bullet until after 1000y. Thus rendering the rifle set up less effective for the vast majority of it's useful range.

This whole thread has done a great job of not getting into a ****ing match comparing favorite bullets and I will keep it that way. I will make a comparison of ballistics between two of my own bullets. Since I am in the process of deciding on a rifle build of my own and how I have made some decisions. I am going to do either a 280ai or a 280 Sherman. This rifle will be built with weight in mind (less because I am getting old) with a 22" Proof sedero light in an 8" twist. This way I can run up to our 177g Hammer Hunter. Currently our highest bc hunting bullet in 7mm. Kind of figured this would be the bullet for me. Then I did what I tell customers all the time and ran the numbers in JBM. In the 280ai we are getting 3200fps comfortably with our 143g Hammer Hunter. We can get 2800 comfortably with the 177g. The two bc's are .253 and .313 g7. I ran the numbers using standard atmosphere at 5000' elev.

143g bullet at 3200fps
Max effective range=950y (1800fps)
Max point blank range=402y
600y with 300y zero=6.5moa drop and 3.0moa drift (10mph full value) impact vel of 2263fps

177g bullet at 2800fps
Max effective range=875y
Max point blank range=361y
600y with 300y zero=8.2moa drop and 2.9moa drift with an impact vel of 2084fps

In this comparison there is no good reason to use the bigger heavier higher bc bullet. Not for hunting. For trying to hit targets farther out than the effective hunting range then you will find a little better performance for the slower bullet.

Thanks Rich. Great thread!

Steve

 

[elkaholic]

Thanks Rich for digging this up.

Rich and I were on the phone the other day and he told me about this thread and I asked him to find it if he could.

As a bullet maker I have lots of thoughts on this. As a hunter my thoughts are directed toward the sport. After all it is hunting that has gotten me into the bullet business. Our bullet business is the culmination of years of searching for a better bullet. Probably the biggest thing that pushed both Brian and I was meat damage. Both of us grew up hunting because we needed the meat. Absolutely violated me to make a solid behind the shoulder shot and lose the onside shoulder to bloodshot meat.

As hunters we figure there are 2 things that matter most and neither should be sacrificed for the other. Accuracy and terminal performance. If you don't have consistent accuracy then your probability of a good hit are reduced and if you sacrifice terminal performance at one end of the impact velocity scale or the other, then your probability of a clean kill goes down. This to me becomes a balancing act that must be paid attention to.

My long range pursuit has evolved when it comes to hunting big game. Totally a personal thing. I now kind of look at 1000 as a cut off point due to time of flight and uncontrolled atmospheric conditions. This does not mean that I will not take a 1200y shot again if all is right. I just am no longer trying to find that shot just to see if I can get it done on the animal. I look at hunting from the muzzle out to what ever the realistic long range is for the hunter. Most all of us have spent countless time and resources working on the 1000y plus shot only to go out and take our game at under 400y. These shorter normal range shots just seem easier to come up with or present themselves more often. I personally look hard at my hunting rig for max point blank range. For those who don't know, that is the range that your setup will hit a 5" radius when held center. The farther out this distance is the more lethal I am as a hunter. If I have a rifle that is set up to hold hair out to 400+ yards and then use dial ups after that out to my personal/equipment max, I am very confident. Inside 450y animals are often much more aware of my presence and time to get a shot off is limited. Beyond this distance the animals are typically not aware of my presence and time to make solid adjustments for wind and drop is more available.

To me this conversation comes down to the rabbit and the tortoise. At some point down range the heavier slower higher bc bullet will always pass up the faster lower bc bullet. Question is at what point down range does this happen. Often the rabbit continues to win the race for wind and drop past the point of range comfort or usable vel. I see lots of guys come on here looking for a fast flat rifle out to relatively long range, like a 300 rum. Inevitably the first advise they will get is to load it with the heaviest highest bc bullet that the market offers. Suddenly they have loaded their new hot rod down to 30-06 speed and have 30-06 performance out to 800y before the heavy bullet starts to take over. Or if you compare the big heavy to a more moderate weight bullet in the rum, the big heavy can't overcome the much faster bullet until after 1000y. Thus rendering the rifle set up less effective for the vast majority of it's useful range.

This whole thread has done a great job of not getting into a ****ing match comparing favorite bullets and I will keep it that way. I will make a comparison of ballistics between two of my own bullets. Since I am in the process of deciding on a rifle build of my own and how I have made some decisions. I am going to do either a 280ai or a 280 Sherman. This rifle will be built with weight in mind (less because I am getting old) with a 22" Proof sedero light in an 8" twist. This way I can run up to our 177g Hammer Hunter. Currently our highest bc hunting bullet in 7mm. Kind of figured this would be the bullet for me. Then I did what I tell customers all the time and ran the numbers in JBM. In the 280ai we are getting 3200fps comfortably with our 143g Hammer Hunter. We can get 2800 comfortably with the 177g. The two bc's are .253 and .313 g7. I ran the numbers using standard atmosphere at 5000' elev.

143g bullet at 3200fps
Max effective range=950y (1800fps)
Max point blank range=402y
600y with 300y zero=6.5moa drop and 3.0moa drift (10mph full value) impact vel of 2263fps

177g bullet at 2800fps
Max effective range=875y
Max point blank range=361y
600y with 300y zero=8.2moa drop and 2.9moa drift with an impact vel of 2084fps

In this comparison there is no good reason to use the bigger heavier higher bc bullet. Not for hunting. For trying to hit targets farther out than the effective hunting range then you will find a little better performance for the slower bullet.

Thanks Rich. Great thread!

Steve

Great post and right on point! You have to know why you are shooting what you're shooting.
I shoot long a lot and pay attention to velocity/energy needed to expand the bullet.Quite often, it's not the heaviest bullet out there.

 

[codyadams]

My thought on this goes along with many. I do believe that people can get caught up in b.c., because a high b.c. can do amazing things for performance!! I think the first question however, should be "Is it suitable for my intended use?" I will use my personal decisions and the Sierra 150 6.5 cal for example. I will start off by saying, most of my long range shooting is for hunting pronghorn and deer, with a couple elk a year, and the average range over the last 25 big game animals taken in the last 3 years is around 550 yards, with a minimum about 250 and max over 900 yards. My .260 AI has proven effective, but as many others, I am constantly looking for something better.

I saw this bullet and thought that it could be awesome for a new .264 wm I put together for my father, and possibly for my .260 AI as well, and possibly gain me some wind drift at longer ranges, as well as increased energy for elk. However, I knew that there are mixed thoughts on SMK's for hunting, and they are not designed for it as stated by manufacturer. This does not necessarily mean it will not work good, as has been proven many times with the Berger 215 Hybrid, it may simply mean that it has not been tested in ballistics gel to prove it's effectiveness, therefore the manufacturer cannot put their stamp of approval on it. But I noticed the bullet is also pointed, partially closing off the hollow point. And since it is a newer bullet, I could not find anyone that had used it for hunting to speak of it's terminal performance, and I do not want to be the first to test on animals. So, I chose not to even try it, I would not use it for hunting, and it would be wasted load development.

I have found that the Berger 140 VLD's work excellent, from 250 out to over 900, starting out at 3070 fps, and on everything from pronghorn does to a 6 point bull, has exited with massive internal damage and a quick kill. I am now going to try the Hornady 147 eld-m's, as I have seen many reports that they are performing well, and I have personally seen them perform well. But taking care to make sure that a bullet will perform well is very important. If all my shots were taken at under 400-500 yards, then I may choose a different bullet....but honestly with the accuracy I'm getting, I probably would not change.