Are three shot groups valuable?

[Greyfox]

My emphasis I'd always on the first cold shot from a fouled bore. For checking/testing my LRH rifles, three shot groups are more then sufficient. First shot is usually from a previously fouled bore, that is cold with follow-up shots for 2 and 3. Once a load is developed, I will test for how many of the aforementioned three shot cycles I can get before cleaning is necessary to maintain group size. I'm generally looking for 30+ shots and stop testing at either accuracy loss or 50 shots. Unless the barrel subjected to the elements, the rifle will not be cleaned during the season unless that shot count is exceeded or expected to be exceeded during an upcoming hunt. The barrel is then fouled before use.

For competition rifles(ie. PRS), the same process is followed except 10 shot precision(in the case of PRS) is used for a precision /accuracy spec, and looked to be maintained for a minimum of 100 shots before cleaning is required. 10 shot strings are shot hot…little/no cooling time.

Examples: LRH(6.5x284)and PRS(6.5CM with sight adjustment) …. Both, 200 yards

 

[PBramble]

As said, statistically, it means nothing. The more rounds on the target, the more you learn. And you don't have to shoot them all at once. Fire three or five and save the target. Use it every time you shoot. You'll start getting a better picture that environmental conditions will factor in a whole lot more. That great three shot group you created in the summer will look a whole lot different in cold hunting conditions. But nobody wants to go to the range in 15 degree weather when the wind is blowing 25 MPH. That's the time your group will tell if it's a good hunting round.

 

[bamban]

My emphasis I'd always on the first cold shot from a fouled bore. For checking/testing my LRH rifles, three shot groups are more then sufficient. First shot is usually from a previously fouled bore, that is cold with follow-up shots for 2 and 3. Once a load is developed, I will test for how many of the aforementioned three shot cycles I can get before cleaning is necessary to maintain group size. I'm generally looking for 30+ shots and stop testing at either accuracy loss or 50 shots. Unless the barrel subjected to the elements, the rifle will not be cleaned during the season unless that shot count is exceeded or expected to be exceeded during an upcoming hunt. The barrel is then fouled before use.

For competition rifles(ie. PRS), the same process is followed except 10 shot precision(in the case of PRS) is used for a precision /accuracy spec, and looked to be maintained for a minimum of 100 shots before cleaning is required. 10 shot strings are shot hot…little/no cooling time.

Examples: LRH(6.5x284)and PRS(6.5CM with sight adjustment) …. Both, 200 yards

Competition and hunting rifles take a different mind set for my peace of mind. I already mentioned how I stay on one shot routine once I have the precision/accuracy I want for hunting needs.

Your post just reminded me about when in 98 I shot in the Scotland full bore championship while on a business trip. A gentleman loaned me his rifle and provided the ammo for the 2 day shoot all the way to 1000 yards.

Asked him if we had time for me to confirm zero the day before we travelled up to Blair Atholl. Off to their local range we went.

On the ground off a bipod the rifle shot this group. He kept this target for a couple of decades in their stat house for anyone to best. He finally sent it to me for remembrance.

BTW, the rifle shot the higest score and high count V-bull across a 2-day match.

A little barracks conversation about the match. The match director asked me how far do i shoot at our local club. With an honest face, I told him 200 yards, which I did not lie. I did not volunteer that I just won the TX LR Iron Sight Championship the year before, shooting a 223 gas gun against Palmas and Magnums.

His words of wisdom before the match started that shooting at 1000 yards is way more challenging than 200 yards.

 

[Greyfox]

Competition and hunting rifles take a different mind set for my peace of mind. I already mentioned how I stay on one shot routine once I have the precision/accuracy I want for hunting needs.

Your post just reminded me about when in 98 I shot in the Scotland full bore championship while on a business trip. A gentleman loaned me his rifle and provided the ammo for the 2 day shoot all the way to 1000 yards.

Asked him if we had time for me to confirm zero the day before we travelled up to Blair Atholl. Off to their local range we went.

On the ground off a bipod the rifle shot this group. He kept this target for a couple of decades in their stat house for anyone to best. He finally sent it to me for remembrance.

BTW, the rifle shot the higest score and high count V-bull across a 2-day match.

View attachment 379235

That is some nice shooting, and a life-long experience to remember!!!

 

[bamban]

As said, statistically, it means nothing. The more rounds on the target, the more you learn. And you don't have to shoot them all at once. Fire three or five and save the target. Use it every time you shoot. You'll start getting a better picture that environmental conditions will factor in a whole lot more. That great three shot group you created in the summer will look a whole lot different in cold hunting conditions. But nobody wants to go to the range in 15 degree weather when the wind is blowing 25 MPH. That's the time your group will tell if it's a good hunting round.

Thank you for the input.

I tested my hunting rifles across all conditions, especially in the bad weather to challenge myself on wind/condition reading.

Last year I took my oldest nephew to harvest a deer on the place about 45 minutes from the house. Unfortunately, the closest distance we can shoot from to the nearest clearing is 230-240 yards across a ravine.

We spent a few session on our 200 yard club range then I took him to the hunting place. I set up water jugs and had him shoot from prone off a bipod, sitting on BOG tripod, standing off the BOG. We went there a few times till he went 1-1 on all positions leading up to opening day.

He did this. His 1st deer. Video through my spotter.



Edit: The barrel had close to 3 boxes through it by opening day. No cleaning for the last 2. The dang 6.5 Need More held POA... just busting his balls for cartridge selection. The factory barreled Tikka shot Hornady factory ammo real well.

 

[bamban]

That is some nice shooting, and a life-long experience to remember!!!

Thank you.

 

[Clem Bronkoski]

For hunting I agree that cold bore shooting is best. Not clean bore. I normally take the rifle(s) that I plan to hunt with to the range prior to the hunt to verify accuracy and to foul the bore. I don't clean it until after the season. Doing this I am certain that my first shot at a game animal will go where its supposed to if I do my part.

 

[RidgeTop]

5 shot groups for varmint rifles.

 

[biednick]

A

Long range hunting doesn't really connect with PRECISION.
Our endeavor is purely boxed into ACCURACY.

Accuracy is defined by any and every single shot. No statistics, averaging, or calculating of probabilities.
You can either hit your mark with a single shot, or you are outside of your accuracy capability.

Accuracy is intimately tied to precision. Given 2 rifles that are identical other than their precision, with one shooting 1 MOA and one shooting 2 MOA, the more precise rifle will be capable of providing adequate accuracy at twice the range of the less precise rifle.

Quantifying accuracy isn't strictly necassary in determining the maximum range a particular load and rifle will provide adequate accuracy, but it allows you to select the most precise combination (which will be the combination that has the potential to offer adequate accuracy at the longest range) and can be useful in determining the maximum range a particular combination is capable of providing adequate accuracy.

Even if you choose to ignore precision and solely test accuracy, the underlying statistics remain the same. 3 shots on target at a given range isn't an indication that particular load and rifle will provide adequate accuracy at that range over many rounds. 8-10 is.

The major exception to this is firearms with fixed sights. If you can't improve accuracy by adjusting the sighing system an extremely precise combination may not be able to provide the best accuracy.

 

[Rich Coyle]

One shot groups are very useful, as long as it's repeated enough, and always located where you want it.

Similar with 3 shot groups just has to be repeatable.

If you play games that require grouping more rounds, then not very useful.

I once took a rifle to the range and fired one shot each day for six days. All bullets were fired at the same target. They produced a six shot group barely over an inch. That, to me, is a cold bore one MOA rifle.

 

[bamban]

I once took a rifle to the range and fired one shot each day for six days. All bullets were fired at the same target. They produced a six shot group barely over an inch. That, to me, is a cold bore one MOA rifle.

That's what I am talking about. A minute 6 shot group across 6 days, I will take it to the field with confidence where my cold bore shot goes....

Only difference from what I do, I use 3/4 inch pasters at 200 that I put at different locations on the target board on each outing to fire just one round...as long as I clipped the paster shooting in the position I intend to deploy out in the field, that's gtg.

 

[Mikecr]

Accuracy is intimately tied to precision.

No it is not.
Maybe some day you'll test the difference and see this.

I get into a local/annual accuracy contest here. It's simple, get in line, when you're up drop your rifle on sand bags provided on a table. Shoot one shot into a 1" dot at 200yds. Hit it & you go to the back of round 2 line. Miss and you're done.
By round 5 the dot goes to 3/4", at round 10 or last 2 shooters, it's closest to center of mark. With 50 shooters and nearly half eliminated, it takes an hour from round 1 to 2, 1/2hr from round 2 to 3, 15mins to 5mins with shooters left in remaining rounds. Before the 10 round [let's end it] rule, I've seen it take 14 rounds for a winner. And there is a pig picken/beer & a lot of fun with this.

Started off with hunting guns, just before deer season here. Now it's full blown 6PPCs, 30BRs, 6Dashers from out of county/state mixed in.
The benchrest/non-hunting guns do ok with this, maybe ~1/2 of them that is.
The killer for them, as it is for everyone else, is the transient temperatures of their metal. These changing shot rates, with no sighters/foulers/good feelers between record shots.
VERY precise guns after 6-7 sighters and with a ~1min shot rate, fall to pieces with a single shot 10mins, or 20mins later.

So it's been close to half & half hunting gun to BR gun victories the past 10yrs.
Keep in mind that hunting guns are no where near BR guns for precision (group) shooting.
Doesn't matter.
What wins is a shooter's understanding of this, and their preparations for the contest.

 

[bamban]

No it is not.
Maybe some day you'll test the difference and see this.

I get into a local/annual accuracy contest here. It's simple, get in line, when you're up drop your rifle on sand bags provided on a table. Shoot one shot into a 1" dot at 200yds. Hit it & you go to the back of round 2 line. Miss and you're done.
By round 5 the dot goes to 3/4", at round 10 or last 2 shooters, it's closest to center of mark. With 50 shooters and nearly half eliminated, it takes an hour from round 1 to 2, 1/2hr from round 2 to 3, 15mins to 5mins with shooters left in remaining rounds. Before the 10 round [let's end it] rule, I've seen it take 14 rounds for a winner. And there is a pig picken/beer & a lot of fun with this.

Started off with hunting guns, just before deer season here. Now it's full blown 6PPCs, 30BRs, 6Dashers from out of county/state mixed in.
The benchrest/non-hunting guns do ok with this, maybe ~1/2 of them that is.
The killer for them, as it is for everyone else, is the transient temperatures of their metal. These changing shot rates, with no sighters/foulers/good feelers between record shots.
VERY precise guns after 6-7 sighters and with a ~1min shot rate, fall to pieces with a single shot 10mins, or 20mins later.

So it's been close to half & half hunting gun to BR gun victories the past 10yrs.
Keep in mind that hunting guns are no where near BR guns for precision (group) shooting.
Doesn't matter.
What wins is a shooter's understanding of this, and their preparations for the contest.

Nice dissertation.

On a small scale when I took my 1903a3 sporter to the range after re-stocking and new scope installed. Boresighted and got on paper on another target. Range, 200 yards.

Adjusted for the middle and fired 2 rounds. Adjusted for center, cooled down while shooting some standing with service rifle. Fired 1 round at paster on L, took a break, shot some more standing, then went back to the 1903a3 on the bench and fired a round on the R.

Not bad, will shoot some more 1 round sessions a few days before opening day to confirm precision. This initial performance looks like it might be good to go to harvest deer at the place where we shoot them from 230-240 yards.

 

[biednick]

I get into a local/annual accuracy contest here. It's simple, get in line, when you're up drop your rifle on sand bags provided on a table. Shoot one shot into a 1" dot at 200yds. Hit it & you go to the back of round 2 line. Miss and you're done.

That sounds like a pretty good test of both accuracy and cold bore precision to me. An imprecise rifle is going to be hit or miss, an inaccurate rifle is going to be mostly miss.

Like you said, it's about knowing what the gun's going to be used for. That's why I recommend letting the barrel cool every round or two when testing precision on a hunting rifle. If I were loading for the competition you described I'd do the same thing. On the other hand, I rip off 10 rounds as quickly as I can while maintaining good fundamentals when I'm testing my PRS rifle.

What test do you suggest I do that could demonstrate an precise rifle isn't capable of better accuracy than a imprecise rifle?