Yup. I'm asking myself the same questions and feeling the same about AMP
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Annealing newbie - Anyone tried this DIY annealer?
- Thread starter OutsideBill
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M-I-C-K-E-Y.......M-O-U-S-E..!!!! Looks like what it is......CHEAP. I think, but what do I know.... you'd be real disappointed. Better off with a deep socket on a hand drill to start.
If I was an experienced reloader and confident I had all the rest of my game locked down, then I might consider that method.
Sdvldog1371
Active Member
I'm going to speak from experience.
I built one of these myself out of metal. And it used a single propane torch. Each roller driven by a separate current controller using geared 12v motors. It worked...for the most part. You used a flame that changes with tank pressure and Tempilaq which is a mediocre and messy indicator.
I built an induction annealer with several 3d printed parts so that it would auto-adjust its height to compensate for different cases. The ZVS boards just kept shorting after not much use. Again, Tempilaq used to set the time in the coil.
I remixed and reprinted parts to make a fluid cooled Fluxeon Annie annealer work with the same adjustable shelf and trap door...I just didn't feel it was doing much for my reloading. Again you use something like tempilaq to set the time in the coil.
I finally broke down and bought an amp mk2 and I noticed an immediate difference when seating bullets and resizing brass. I'm not saying using a torch or a homemade induction annealer doesn't work, but it does take a lot more babysitting and a keen eye. Also, without sending out samples or having the testing equipment, you'll never know if you're truly annealed...or over annealed. You go too far and cook your brass a little each time and you're changing the alloy altogether.
I anneal after every firing and I have several calibers and a few of them are shot in different rifles, meaning I have 3 260 rems, each their own brass, 2 6.5 Addictions, each their own, 2 6GTs each their own etc... so I have A LOT of brass I Anneal. I also anneal for friends and family that reload. It was expensive, but it has paid for itself.
The one thing I wish someone had spoken up and told me about when I started reloading is that it is like any other investment. You can buy cheap and then eventually you'll more than likely buy something better...over and over and over...you'll find that some of the name brands make cheap garbage, they're only in business because they once had a good name and good products. Buy once, cry once. I used to get ****ed when I'd read it, but I've waisted so much money buying something I can afford right now, and then being disappointed with it and paying more later. You don't have to have a $1m reloading setup, but buy quality gear the first time.
I built one of these myself out of metal. And it used a single propane torch. Each roller driven by a separate current controller using geared 12v motors. It worked...for the most part. You used a flame that changes with tank pressure and Tempilaq which is a mediocre and messy indicator.
I built an induction annealer with several 3d printed parts so that it would auto-adjust its height to compensate for different cases. The ZVS boards just kept shorting after not much use. Again, Tempilaq used to set the time in the coil.
I remixed and reprinted parts to make a fluid cooled Fluxeon Annie annealer work with the same adjustable shelf and trap door...I just didn't feel it was doing much for my reloading. Again you use something like tempilaq to set the time in the coil.
I finally broke down and bought an amp mk2 and I noticed an immediate difference when seating bullets and resizing brass. I'm not saying using a torch or a homemade induction annealer doesn't work, but it does take a lot more babysitting and a keen eye. Also, without sending out samples or having the testing equipment, you'll never know if you're truly annealed...or over annealed. You go too far and cook your brass a little each time and you're changing the alloy altogether.
I anneal after every firing and I have several calibers and a few of them are shot in different rifles, meaning I have 3 260 rems, each their own brass, 2 6.5 Addictions, each their own, 2 6GTs each their own etc... so I have A LOT of brass I Anneal. I also anneal for friends and family that reload. It was expensive, but it has paid for itself.
The one thing I wish someone had spoken up and told me about when I started reloading is that it is like any other investment. You can buy cheap and then eventually you'll more than likely buy something better...over and over and over...you'll find that some of the name brands make cheap garbage, they're only in business because they once had a good name and good products. Buy once, cry once. I used to get ****ed when I'd read it, but I've waisted so much money buying something I can afford right now, and then being disappointed with it and paying more later. You don't have to have a $1m reloading setup, but buy quality gear the first time.
I'm no authority, but that's the approach I'm trying to take on the whole reloading game. In addition to the temp, time, and position elements, I would add that being able to measure and test results would be ideal. To me, the most impressive thing about the AMP annealer is not the machine (although it is impressive), but the level of effort those folks have put into testing, validating, and ensuring the repeatability on brass. That same level of testing could be done on any annealing method, but it seems no one else is doing it.
/\ This right here is my biggest concern. /\ As I just said a minute ago "To me, the most impressive thing about the AMP annealer is not the machine (although it is impressive), but the level of effort those folks have put into testing, validating, and ensuring the repeatability on brass. That same level of testing could be done on any annealing method, but it seems no one else is doing it."
I'm a long way from even trying to rationalize an AMP right now. Maybe someday. So if everything else is guesswork, I don't want to spend a bunch of money for an unknown result. At least with an adjustable, timed system I might be able to make it repeatable. And if I'm careful I should be able to avoid ruining my brass.
Oh yeah, I'm color blind and have poor red/green discrimination. When I watch those videos, they often talk about the brass starting to turn faint red well before I can see it. So, as remarkable as the human eye/brain can be at learning to calibrate complicated things, I'm not really in a position to take advantage of that. I'm going to be guessing even more than the average Joe.
MarkInPA
Well-Known Member
Glad you shared that
Sdvldog1371
. I agree with you on so many points. I appreciate your insight.I wanted to comment on the Tempilaq. I have tried using that and I suppose it does what it is intended for. I was instructed that the Templilaq was supposed to be applied to the inside of the case neck. What I didn't like was that the Tempilaq was still inside the case neck after annealing and needed to be removed before proceeding with reloading. The only thing that I found that I could use to remove it was a bronze bore brush in my cordless drill. Needless to say, I was not real wild about running a bore brush in the inside of the case necks. I suppose you could use it on some sacrificial brass just to get an idea of how much time it takes to get the case necks up to temperature.
MarkInPA
Well-Known Member
Just to let you know, I'm NOT color blind and I have a tough time seeing the change in color in those videos too.
There is a science to the metallurgy involved in the hardening and softening of the brass. In my opinion, what we are trying to do with the brass as a reloader is more of an art with no hard and fast rules. The exception might be if you have the AMP annealer.
Interesting and helpful information for me folks. Thanks everyone!
@Sdvldog1371 , @MarkInPA , and really all of you guys are, I think, pointing to why the reloading manuals don't address annealing and reloading equipment manufacturers aren't making and selling annealers. The challenge of doing it right and doing it repeatably without some very sophisticated technology built in (like the AMP), or cost and time prohibitive post-production testing, just hasn't been there up to now. Those manufacturers are already working in a high risk business.
Who wants to take up the challenge of designing and building and affordable home test unit for the brass annealer?
Sdvldog1371
Active Member
The phone I had my photos on ate its SIM and SD card while at work one day. The recovered photos are on my laptop...but here are some of the previous ventures.
Keep in mind with the all metal unit, this was V1, v2 had dual speed control and was painted. The Annie, I stole the folding touch screen, arduino and photo sensor for other tinkering projects. I couldn't find an all assembled picture.
I'm not sure I'd trust anything short of PEEK printed parts for a 3d printed annealer.
Keep in mind with the all metal unit, this was V1, v2 had dual speed control and was painted. The Annie, I stole the folding touch screen, arduino and photo sensor for other tinkering projects. I couldn't find an all assembled picture.
I'm not sure I'd trust anything short of PEEK printed parts for a 3d printed annealer.
Attachments
Looks like you really put a lot of work into that. That's the kind of effort that goes beyond just tinkering. That's some real design work. I must confess, the idea of taking a rotating flame annealer and modifying to use with a DIY induction annealer has been in my mental workshop for about a month now. The DIY flame version in the original post would probably just invite some tinkering as I wouldn't be messing up a "real" machine.
I know the AMP machine has solved your annealing problems, but I'll bet you have some ideas on how to build a brass testing device. Think about it. The LRHoaB (Long Range Hunting on a Budget) world needs a hero.
Sdvldog1371
Active Member
I appreciate the kind words, however, I'm neither a metallurgist, nor a Materials scientist. I know there are specific hand operated testing units one can purchase, they are, however, about half the cost or more of an AMP.
